A lot of horse power in these stables!

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Where: Roscommon, Ireland

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When: 01 January 1903

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
These are the stables on the Rockingham Estate in Boyle, Co. Roscommon - home to the King family (the Estate, not the Stables!). It looks as if real horse-drawn conveyances and horse power as we know it today were still co-existing quite happily there. The main vehicle is allegedly a Panhard! Let the automotive arguments commence...

Photographer: Probably Robert French of Lawrence Photographic Studios, Dublin

Date: 1903 (thanks Robinson_Luzo)

NLI Ref.: L_ROY_07331

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 76258
rockingham rockinghamestate boyle roscommon ireland connacht connaught stables staff carwashing cars motorcars panhard robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection glassnegative powerandprivilege powerandprivilegeexhibition nationalphotographicarchive npa nationallibraryofireland davidjarvis coachman michaelbruen stableboy johnbruen johnkelly castleisland galoshes et levassor panhardetlevassor limerickbybeachcomber onomatopoeia ric constable royalirishconstabulary pillboxhat kingharman lordlieutenant viceroy williamhumbleward earldudley 1903 rockinghamdemesne 20thcentury

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  • profile

    Leonard Bentley

    • 16/Aug/2013 07:43:12

    Hi, Is that a turntable?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 07:52:32

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Hello Leonard. I don't think so. It looks to me like a beautifully paved, but fixed structure. There is a sort of "gutter" all the way around, so presumably it was a washing area?

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Aug/2013 08:36:08

    The circle is still visible on Google maps. Here is the historic OSI link.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Aug/2013 08:53:04

    There are 87 people listed in the Demesne in the 1901 census, including: Jarvis David 26 M England Coachman Bruen Michael 20 M Co Roscommon Stable Boy Domestic Servant Bruen John 19 M Co Roscommon Stable Boy Domestic Servant I think it is likely that those three are here somewhere. There are also many gardeners, gamekeepers, a Steward, a Butler and an RIC constable.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Aug/2013 08:59:59

    Also: Kelly John 26 M Kings County Stable Boy Domestic Servant

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    Swordscookie

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:06:39

    Doesn't the Peeler look grand there in the lap of luxury? Very interesting shot, the circular washing area an example of early "Time and Motion" study? Steer them round for the various stages of cleaning, washing at 9 o'clock, drying at 12, polishing at 3 and clean inside at 6???? Note that the upper floor windows are not glazed and are frameless.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:14:07

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Added to our map, thanks! What a set up on the Rockingham Demesne from the OSI map - Rockingham House itself, stables, Church, an icehouse, quays, boat house, a subway!, footbridge, The Temple, all around a lake... Also adding all the names you've plucked from the census as tags.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:16:48

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie I presume you didn't waste your money on glazing materials if there weren't people living upstairs or things being stored there?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:32:42

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie Hi Sean, I got distracted by http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Niall listing an RIC constable on the estate. Are you sure the gentleman in the car is a "Peeler"? I don't think I've seen that style of cap on RIC men - is it not more a military style?

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:34:49

    A picture I took of the front of the stables - www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz/542562256/

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:36:57

    You can add "Castle island" to your tags. It's sitting out in the lake, though it doesn't look like there's a castle on it on Google maps.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:53:15

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz Done, Joe, but always feel free to add tags yourself. Great to see the fairly contemporary photo of the stables, thanks. Is most of the estate now absorbed as Lough Key Forest Park?

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 16/Aug/2013 09:58:53

    Galoshes - the fellow on the left. Washes, sploshes ...

  • profile

    blackpoolbeach

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:02:24

    Panhard car turning off St. Stephen's Green onto Kildare Street, Dublin imma.gallery-access.com

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:06:24

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia So, they're galoshes! Thank you... And you're lining up the three rhymes that you need. Is a limerickbybeachcomber imminent?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:07:18

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach That's from our J.J. Clarke collection. I was going to use it soon, if you'd be interested in seeing the original in "high definition"?

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:30:12

    The Onomatopoeia Limerick When it's time for the vehicle washes I puts on me shiny galoshes - I know I didn't oughta But it's fun in the water ... The splishes, the splashes, the sploshes

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:32:34

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia And an unusually "clean" Limerick! Thanks :D

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:50:58

    RIC pillbox hats.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 10:54:12

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley I absolutely sit corrected, Niall, thank you! And apologies to http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie for doubting for even a moment your "Peeler" expertise...

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:29:32

    The estate was taken over by the State in the 1950s and Rockingham house burned down in a fire started by an electrical fault in 1957. The house had been designed by John Nash. After the ruins of the house were demolished in 1971, the Moylurg viewing tower was built on the site in 1973.[1] The servant's tunnels still exist, with one entrance near the tower. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough_Key_Forest_Park

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:31:16

    Don't forget http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6452712049/

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:37:21

    www.dia.ie/works/view/56173/building/CO.+ROSCOMMON%2C+ROC... Name:SUTHERLAND, JOHN Building:CO. ROSCOMMON, ROCKINGHAM (BOYLE) Date:1810p Nature:Design of demesne, for Robert King, 1st Viscount Lorton. Works included tunnel from house to stable block, follies, castles, lodges. For 1st Viscount Lorton. Refs: Keith Lamb & Patrick Bowe, A History of Gardening in Ireland (National Botanic Gardens, 1995), 46

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:37:26

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yeah, it's all Lough key Forest Park now. On the Google Earth image from earlier, to the east of the stables, you can see the campsite. To the north (the very blue part) is the visitor centre and kids adventure centre.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:38:24

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] How could I forget? Amn't I still morto at thinking the davits were "curvy ironwork lamps"... :D

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:38:25

    I've taken a few photos around the park. Set here - www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz/sets/72157618875332623/ None inside the stables I'm afraid, as they were closed up.

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 16/Aug/2013 11:46:29

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland That was fun LOL, someday we should all post the things we got wrong (there are many) under a photo of one of Ireland's great follies, it would make a good read. Also, can I suggest that a selected group of say 50 of your photos along with the notes would make a very interesting publication, perhaps sponsored by the NLI with proceeds to a library related charity. I think it would sell very well at Christmas. Thinking out loud, Flicker would probably sponsor the publication costs??

  • profile

    Inverarra

    • 16/Aug/2013 13:23:58

    Great photo. Reminds me of boy scout camping days in Rockingham in the early 60s.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Aug/2013 14:59:26

    Sounding the photographic blog post KLAXON! This might interest ye - on "rephotographing" our Lawrence Collection, with which you are all now intimately acquainted...

  • profile

    martindevlin

    • 16/Aug/2013 19:13:33

    Wheels jacked up off the ground noted by eyelightfilm & self on both the motor car and the carriage on the left. I have heard of this being done, so as wheel could be turned to facilitate the washing of all its surfaces including the spokes and rims / tyres.

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 16/Aug/2013 20:53:05

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Count me in as a purchaser!! There is so much history and detail in these images and the detective work has been really interesting to follow! This is a super image - I just love all the wee details!

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 16/Aug/2013 22:32:22

    A horse walks into a bar near the Rockingham Estate in Boyle, Co. Roscommen. "Why the long face?", asks the barman. "I am redundant", said the long-faced horse, "replaced by something called a Panhard. Knackers yard and lasagne for me ... "

  • profile

    Robinson_Luzo

    • 17/Aug/2013 16:41:57

    The central car would appear to be a Panhard et Levassor 7 CV Voiturette, built around 1902/3. Date would most likely be 1906/7.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 17/Aug/2013 20:26:46

    The policeman appears to be an officer, possibly a District Inspector. Interestingly the 1901 Census has a Henry King of Rockingham listed as an R.I.C. pensioner. If this Mr. King was the owner of the Rockingham estate then he was very likely an officer himself and maybe the policeman in the car was visiting at the time the photo was taken. A similar uniform of a District Inspector from around the same time with the exception of the cap catalogue.nli.ie/Record/P_WP_1197/Image?lookfor=http://ww...

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 17/Aug/2013 20:59:23

    Another possibility is that the man in uniform is William Humble Ward, 2nd Earl of Dudley who was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland from 1902 to 1905. Rockingham House became his official residence in 1903. There is a photo of him on this page taken in 1900 that bears some resemblence to the man above. landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-sho...

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 17/Aug/2013 21:13:53

    Lord Lieutenant it is I believe, the same car is pictured in a 1902 issue of The Graphic magazine with the Lord Lieutenant while on a tour of Connemara. The page in question by strange coincidence is for sale on Amazon at the moment www.amazon.com/LORD-LIEUTENANT-CONNEMARA-DUDLEY-IRELAND-G...

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 17/Aug/2013 22:24:26

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Great stuff! - watching with interest ... (and wondering why anyone would pay $20 for a random page from an old magazine!).

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 18/Aug/2013 23:15:50

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia/] $20 is a little steep alright, I would think it will be a while before it sells. It seems Lord Dudley was a motoring enthusiast and had a lot to do with allowing the Gordon Bennet road race to be run in Ireland. Up until that time it was illegal to race cars on public roads, it took an act of Parliament to change that. Incidently British Racing green had its origin in this race, Shamrock Green being chosen for the team cars in honour of the Irish hosts. www.gracesguide.co.uk/1903_Gordon_Bennett_Cup www.jccnf.org/index.php/97-articles/125-history-of-brg There is also an account of the Lord Lieutenant driving to the golf course 9 miles from his residence with his police escorts pedalling hard on their bicycles behind him. They had to be given motorcycles and they must have been among the first policemen in the country to use them.

  • profile

    hockadilly

    • 19/Aug/2013 09:19:07

    Oh, please tell me that was the origin of the phrase 'Gordon Bennet!' Certainly can imagine the poor policemen muttering something as they pedalled away!

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 19/Aug/2013 11:04:29

    That looks like the right car (although the front mudguards have been altered), but I don't think the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland would dress up as a policeman and ride shotgun! I think it is more likely to be an actual RIC man, perhaps James Shiel who was recorded on the estate in 1901 (his wife was there, too, so might have been living there, rather than just visiting...). The car does suggest a date after 1902.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 19/Aug/2013 13:02:50

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley/ I wouldn't rule out the Lord Lieutenant entirely, he would have been entitled to wear the uniform, I believe, as he was the man in charge of the entire constabulary.of Ireland. It is however more likely that the man in the photo was an officer assigned to the Lord Lieutenant although there is some resemblence to the photo of Lord Dudley taken in 1900. James Shiel was a constable but the person in the photo is wearing an officers uniform.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 20/Aug/2013 01:57:28

    From the Poole collection, Lord Lieutenant at Waterford. Same car possibly? www.nli.ie/glassplates/P_WP/P_WP_0406.jpg Interesting newspaper article on Lord and Lady Dudley paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=TS...

  • profile

    maire_mccluskey

    • 20/Aug/2013 21:37:33

    Rockingham Estate was home to the King-Harman family.

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    ofarrl

    • 20/Aug/2013 23:12:53

    I wonder where the King family were when the Lord Lieutenant was occupying the house from 1903 to 1905. Did they rent it out to the government and move somewhere else or maybe move to another house on the estate.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 24/Aug/2013 21:16:18

    I found a nice photo of Lord Dudley in his Panhard in The Motor Car journal of 1904 I'm fairly certain the car above belonged to the Lord Lieutenant, and while my suggestion that the policeman might have been him was a long shot (or just wishful thinking on my part) the well dressed gentleman standing on the right looks like a much better candidate for the Lord Lieutenant. It appears the King-Harmans were not living at Rockingham around this time. Colonel Edward King-Harman had died in 1888 and the estate was being administered by the Court of Chancery until the Colonel's grandson, Sir Cecil Stafford-King-Harman, was old enough to inherit the estate.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 25/Aug/2013 11:16:38

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Great suggestion on de Buke, Danny! Think though that it might have to be filed in our "For the day when NLI staff are successfully cloned" drawer...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 25/Aug/2013 11:23:16

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thanks very much. King-Harman now added as a tag.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 25/Aug/2013 11:25:42

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Very convinced by your work, that the car was that of the Lord Lieutenant. Most of the photos show massive head lights. Would these have been removed for the washing process above, or just added at a later date?

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 25/Aug/2013 16:26:32

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/] I would think they were more then likely removed for cleaning and polishing. The head lights would have been carbide lamps which burned acetylene gas produced by a reaction between water and calcium carbide. A closeup of one of these lamps on a 1902 Panhard L Bleriot Lamp - AA 161 - 1902 Panhard et Levassor Tonneau

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Aug/2013 11:08:33

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] A thing of brassy beauty, but a beast of a thing at the same time.

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    J Rocks

    • 27/Aug/2013 15:06:36

    But... why a hearse? Would a household own such a specialized vehicle?

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Aug/2013 18:36:40

    Just noticed the car has no reg plates, which were introduced at the end of 1903. Time is likely early/ mid 1903.

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    ofarrl

    • 30/Aug/2013 20:31:29

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ Not a hearse I think. Looks similar to a Brougham but the door is at the back, looks much too short to be hearse.

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 17/Sep/2013 11:13:27

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Success! The back cover photo of Bob Montgomery's 'An Irish Roadside Camera, 1896-1906' shows the car and states it is The Earl of Dudley's 12hp Panhard in 1903.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 17/Sep/2013 12:48:37

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Great, thank you! All questions marks removed from Circa 1903 date then. I must dig out Bob's book and have a look - it sounds excellent...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 06/Mar/2016 13:10:44

    I have just added this photo to our 50,000+ Views Album. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/sets/72157651136879037