Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.
It is indeed, here's a current view of the chapel maps.google.com/maps?q=collins+barracks,+old+youghal+road...
and here's what the gates on the left look like from the other side maps.google.com/maps?q=collins+barracks,+old+youghal+road...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Old Youghal Road, is it? Thanks very much, Ciaran.
Wouldn't imagine the stonework was painted pink and blue back in the day?
From - www.dia.ie That is the Chapel school in the background built in 1850 - so no help with dating.
Building:CO. CORK, CORK, YOUGHAL ROAD, BARRACKS
Nature:Chapel school to be erected by Board of Ordnance.
Refs: B 8, 30 Nov 1850, 568
Originally erected between 1801 and 1806
Initially known simply as The Barracks, the complex was extended in 1849 and renamed to Victoria Barracks, to celebrate a visit by Queen Victoria.
It features the largest military barracks parade square in Europe
Built by Abraham Addison Hargrave to a design by John Gibson www.dia.ie/works/view/52049/building/CO.+CORK%2C+CORK%2C+...
Wayhay - a Cork one! And the Barracks at that! I'll add some more on this beauty later, but this photo is actually proudly displayed in the Barracks museum itself - the museum dated it to 1897. The building on the right is the guard room. The chapel is in the middle background, and Youghal Road gate on the left. (Sher I know it well)
Brilliant shot Carol to start the week. Look at the two interlopers at the corner of the Guardhouse. I don't think this was the main entrance, I have never seen an entrance with a guardhouse so close to the front of the gate and my memory of the barracks is somewhat different. The badges on the forage caps and helmets should be a help in identifying the regiments, we just need a military buff on here to help?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thanks Danny! That's quite a claim to fame - the largest military barracks parade square in Europe.
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Wonder if your Abraham Addison Hargrave is any relation to our Joshua H. Hargrave, born in Cork around 1860 and went on to be a railway engineer in Dublin office of Great Northern Railway (as well as amateur photographer)?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Swiftly moving this through the years to 1897, thank you! And looking forward to your contribution later...
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie] Thanks Sean! It is the main entrance now from [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s Streetview and from [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s OSI Map...
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Yes! familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/a/r/Lesley-Mary-Har... (although the dates don't seem to stack up - but the names are so specific it must be the same family)
EDIT: Wrong generation - this seems to fit better familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/a/r/Lesley-Mary-Har...
Barracks for Infantry and Cavalry located on 'a commanding eminence NE of the city'. The Barracks were erected in 1806 by the late Abraham Hargrave Esq. and were later named 'Victoria Barracks', in 1922 they were renamed 'Collins Barracks'. In 1837 there was accommodation for 156 officers, 1994 men and 120 horses. The barracks included a 120 bed hospital and there was also a separate 130 bed military hospital in the southern suburbs. These barracks extended in 1849 and named after Queen Victoria who visited Cork in that year, are now called Collins Barracks. Hargrave's designs included long ranges of buildings which could accommodate over 2000 men. [T. F. McNamara, p. 69]
The Barracks building is important from an architectural point of view as an example of perfect scale and proportion, in Georgian Architecture. The Barracks is organized around a large square parade ground which is considered to be one of the finest in the country.
This seems like a more accurate family tree of the Hargraves www.dia.ie/architects/view/818/HARGRAVE-JOSHUAHARRISON
Joshua Harrison Hargrave was the eldest son of Abraham Addison Hargrave and not to be confused with his uncle Joshua Addison Hargrave!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thanks Ciaran! Great to have more information on one of "our" photographers...
OK. A couple of notes from me:
* DATE - I am fairly certain that the Barracks museum lads got the date on this right. Another book I have also has this pic. And also dates it to 1897.
* BARRACKS/SQUARE - There is a lot written about the Barracks, but a great source is "The Barracks: A History of Victora/Collins Barracks" you'll find it in Library Towers or Amazon (Pic on front shows Union flag being lowered prior to handover. This pic is taken in the square. The "largest in Europe" claim is one of those untested claims that may or may not be true). The heritage open-day site has great pic of the plaque outside the walls which explains that the walls don't actually mark the "real" boundary of the barracks. (So don't even THINK about building yer shack there).
* GATE - This was the main gate for many years. You could throw a stone to my Granny's house from this gate. (Though she wouldn't have liked it if you did). It used to open in "my day". The new main entrance is now down the hill. I am intrigued by the pile of stones in the pic next to the gate (and the cart used to move them).
* GUARDROOM - Per my note/tag, this was built in 1806. It now houses the smashing Barracks museum. (See pics) I must head back up there again some day soon.
* CHAPEL - What we see here is the back of the chapel. Around the front you'll find various memorials - including one to the 5 members of 4th Infantry who died as a result of an accident in the Glen of Imaal in the 1970s. (Look it up)
* SOLDIERS - I will have a look at Dan Harvey and Gerry White's book later (to see if they confirm postings in 1897), but I think we are looking at either RIR or Munster Fusiliers
* KIDS - I am in awe of the young fella poking his head around the guard room - to get himself and his mate (likely brother) into the shot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Fantastic! Will be guided by you, the book, and the Barracks museum lads and have removed the question mark from "Circa 1897". In fact, I'm going to go mad altogether and remove the "Circa"!
I don't know if this is any use, but on August 13, 1897 The Belfast News-letter reported:
At the end of next week the 2nd Battalion Hampshire Regiment, under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Briggs, will move from Birr and Dublin to Cork Barracks, taking the place of the 2nd Battalion Royal Irish Fusiliers, which left Ireland in June, and is now at Aldershot.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Your newspaper "snippets" are always of use! Lack of trees in full leaf in this photo would imply it was taken months before August, so would imagine these gentlemen could be Fusiliers?
Great information. You reminded me of a yarn from long ago told about a fully armed
sentry from Connemara at Renmore barracks in Galway. A few of the local lads were winding him up and teasing him. He was reported to have finally lost his patience and uttered the famous words,
"Jaaaes, if I only had a stone"
Might explain the heap of stones in Cork.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I had guessed possibly about March or April from the foliage.
Rather conveniently, The Star (Guernsey) published a monthly column of who was where in the British Army (which confirms the Belfast News-letter report). From this monthly column we have in Cork:
January: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers, 89th.
February: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers, 89th.
March: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Hampshire 67th.
April: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers 89th.
May: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers 89th.
June: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers 89th.
July:2nd Leicestershire, 17th
August:2nd Leicestershire, 17th
September: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th
October: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Hampshire 67th.
November: 2nd Leicestershire, 17th; 2nd Hampshire 67th.
My wife (born Jan 55) and her family lived inside the barracks until the new houses were built in Thomas Kent Park. She was the second eldest and they moved when there was five siblings. The married accommodation within the barracks were little more than hovels. They were pulled down many years ago - thankfully.
I'm not a militiary expert but the hat badge looks more like Leicestershire Regiment than Royal Irish
(so that's where Leicester Tigers RFC get their name!)
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/john-walton] Thanks for that, John! Was looking at the location of the married quarters on the OSI map earlier, not large for the number of soldiers that could be stationed at this Barracks, even if only a fraction of that number were married...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Would never have thought there was so much troop movement...
At the 1897 Cork Cycle Club sports, "The band of the Leicestershire Regiment was in attendance, and enlivened the proceedings with a choice programme of music" (Freeman's Journal Wednesday, June 23, 1897)
Married quarters - not all lived at the barracks, it seems. At the inquest into the horrific death (I'll spare everyone the details) of a Mrs Mobbs, her brother said that she "had been married only six months, and had lived with her husband, a private in the Leicestershire Regiment, at No 6 Military road." (Freeman's Journal, Tuesday, December 28, 1897). From the OSI map, Military road is directly opposite the Youghal Road gates.
I notice also from the map that
a) The barracks were well provided with chalets de nécessité
b) The tunnel from here passes under the ground immediately in front of the chapel.
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner] Though no moveable boudoirs, alas, in any of the quarters!
Brilliant joining of dots on the railway tunnel...
P.S. Does anyone know what the W.D. Stones are on the OSI Map? They're at all the corners...
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] They would appear to be boundary markers (but then you knew that). I think "WD" stands for "War Department" and we're talking about stones like these. Here's the one at the Rathmore road corner (see that "lump" between the modern bollard and the telegraph pole - it reinforces the fact that the walls don't delineate the true Barracks' boundary - as per the plaque I mentioned before)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Aha, thanks! Was assuming something to do with the boundary as they're at all the corners. But WD was the problem. Will have to lurk around the corners of Beggar's Bush Barracks this evening to see if I can spot any.
And was there always a War Department on the go? Sadly I suppose there was always some conflict somewhere with British Army involvement throughout the 19th century and into the 20th - even before WWI.
The reason I am surprised that this was the "Main" gate is because of the lack of room to manoeuvre inside it. There is an arch in the guardhouse leading to the interior (square?) of the barracks but it doesn't appear high enough to permit troops with rifles, bayonet fixed and sloped to pass comfortably underneath. Cavalry would not be able to pass and in addition there would be a lot of wheeling to get out that gate which would not be conducive to good military formations! Rhapsody there is a "main" and a "Grand" entrance:-)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland think its to do with the War Departments own ordinance mapping?
Edit - note to self - refresh screen before answering questions already answered by many others......
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie/ having completed a circumnavigation of the barracks I notice that the entrance I went in by was that off Thomas Kent Park. There is a much grander entrance now but that is just down from the one in the shot.
See www.flickr.com/groups/wardeptmarkers/pool/ for lots of W.D. Stones
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/ As regards the boundaries and the WD stones - I went to the Model school in Limerick which backed onto what was the "New" barracks and is now Sarsfields barracks. Our handball alleys were at that end of the school yard and if the ball cleared the wall we had to climb this enormous wall and collect the ball from what was known as "the reserve". We figured out as kids that there was a reserve of ground outside the barracks walls where no building was permitted. I expect this was to prevent infiltration etc. the WD stones were outside the reserved area.
The War Department was the United Kingdom government department responsible for the supply of equipment to the armed forces of the United Kingdom and the pursuance of military activity. In 1857 it became the War Office. Within the War Office the name 'War Department' remained in use to describe the military transport services of the War Department Fleet and the War Department Railways.
I'm no expert on uniforms but the sentry's uniform looks very similar to the one on this loon
Portobello Barracks - here the details on the face of the WD Stones are shown on the map
vis B.S. W. ^ D. No 13 - interesting
presume war department boundary stone no 13 - so I presume they were used to mark out military lands?
it took over 60 stones to mark the boundary here!!
On the 6" map they are marked "Ordnance Stones".
There's one to the SE of the barracks, suggesting the area labelled 'Camp Field' is WD land.
In September 1897 "Lord Roberts ... arrived in Cork on Saturday. He inspected the military forces in the Camp Field at noon, and expressed himself very pleased at the general demeanour of the men." (Freeman's September 14, 1897)
Earlier in the year it had been the site of celebrations of Queen Victoria's Jubilee:
At the Camp Field near the barracks the military got together a gigantic bonfire, which after firing off a few shots from artillery guns was ignited. A great crowd assembled to see this bonfire, and the band of the Leicestershire Regiment was in attendance and played a programme. A body of Nationalists got into the field, and when the bonfire was well on they formed a procession and marched round the crowd singing National airs. An effort was made to prevent them, but they formed a very compact body and succeeded in promenading the field, two or three turns, and then retired cheering.
Eeek! Flickr has gone all FUNEREAL this morning. Who died?
Register your Flickr Feelings here - www.flickr.com/help/forum/en-us/72157633547442506/page1/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia That's the new improved Flickr.... ungh.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Progress, everything must look like Facebook!!
We will have to get http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland to select a good cover photo, the wet leaf would be ok for the botanic gardens
On the tunnel, from this point in Streetview on the Old Youghal Road, you can turn and see the gate and the chapel, but looking along Bellview Crescent, you can see what looks like an old stone tower or chimney, which is actually a ventilation shaft from the railway tunnel below.
BTW. I couldn't find any more detail last night about the posting to the Barracks in 1897. (Nothing more than already furnished by Mr. Spooner at any rate). However, I did come across some other photos of the Barracks; including this calotype from the 1840s which appears to be a view of the guardroom and gate from a different angle.(Although I have a slight suspicion this might be Buttevant barracks...)
Call of Duty total esta foto... Muito legal. Parabéns!
@guliolopez no, it's definitely Cork Barracks. The arch in Buttevant. is flatter and it doesn't have the sloping walls. That photo must count as one of the oldest taken in Ireland.
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Hi. Thanks for that. RE: Oldest - There are a few others in that series. You'll find them re-prod'ed in this book (Some are taken a Buttevant, some in Canada(?) and some from his other postings around the place). There's a great one of these bearded lads. RE: Not Buttevant - After looking at some others from Buttevant, I recon you are right. However I am still not convinced it's actually "our" gate in Victoria/Collins barracks. I say that because this shot looks to be of the same subject as Craigie's earlier one - but from a different angle. And I just don't think the building behind is (or was) in Victoria/Collins barracks. Perhaps Fermoy?
This one is definitely Buttevant. This building is still there.
The arches in both barracks in Fermoy are flat like Buttevant:
The top one here I think is Victoria/Collins Barracks (EDIT: No I'm wrong - it's Fermoy Old Barracks at the Bachelor's Walk gate - note the steps on the OS Map on the building in the background) and the bottom one might be the inner gate between the two yards in Buttevant (see OS Map) although it could equally be the gate at the Sergeants' Mess in Victoria
EDIT: Just realised that the first link above was banjaxed - just fixed it now.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thanks for all that. I think you are spot-on with all of those. I recon those Buttevant ones are all correctly labelled. And the Fermoy one is also correctly labelled. I *had* thought that the "Cork Barracks" one was incorrectly labelled. But after reviewing and checking against your Street View samples, I think it was actually correct all along. So I'm going to update the Wikimedia Commons entries now to reflect. Thanks a lot!
Contributors here, and http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] in particular might be interested in the image/article below. I must get Lenhian's book and see whether it notes if this image was already a "known entity" before earlier this year http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11665370495/