H.M.S. Warspite at Queenstown, now Cobh
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Research Help!
Where: Cork, Ireland
Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.
When: 01 January 1894
Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Since we visited Kingstown yesterday, thought we might swing by Queenstown in Co. Cork today, now renamed Cobh.
This photo lacks the usual impeccable clarity of our Lawrence Collection photos, but thought you might be interested in it anyway. For train buffs, I think the engine has no. 89 on it...
Date: 1893-1896
NLI Ref.: L_ROY_05418
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 29585
This photo lacks the usual impeccable clarity of our Lawrence Collection photos, but thought you might be interested in it anyway. For train buffs, I think the engine has no. 89 on it...
Date: 1893-1896
NLI Ref.: L_ROY_05418
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 29585
hmswarspite
warspite
queenstown
cobh
cork
ireland
munster
ship
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royalnavy
train
railwaystation
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steamers
robertfrench
williamlawrence
lawrencecollection
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1890s
imperieuseclass
imperieuse
armouredcruiser
cruiser
tenders
whitestarline
flyingfox
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Vab2009
Oh lovely! So much action here. I think that is a White Star line pennant on one of the wee ferrying tenders against the quay. (I can't get the notes to move into place this morning!)
Vab2009
I supect for vintage she was this ship en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(1893) which began life as HMS Hermione and was renamed HMS Warspite. But according to Wiki there were nine ships with that name. She could be the next one that was launched in 1913.
derangedlemur
It's a pre-dreadnought ship, anyway, so 1893 is plausible.
Vab2009
The name on the closest paddle steamer seems to be ".......... Fox"
derangedlemur
It's also a cruiser rather than a battleship. In fact, it looks very like the refitted 1884 Warspite: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(1884). Scrapped in 1905.
derangedlemur
"1893...then a port guard ship at Queenstown until 1896"
derangedlemur
The lok looks like an Aspinall 4-4-0
Vab2009
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I think this was the 1884 Warspite as she was stationed at Queenstown.
Vab2009
The 1893 Warspite was not named that until 1922.
Vab2009
Yep - I will go with this one en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Warspite_(1884)
Vab2009
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] So pre 1905 and post 1893.
Vab2009
I have been hunting names of White Star tenders but only can find America and Ireland. Must go and do some chores here too!
derangedlemur
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009 Pre-1896, I'd imagine.
Vab2009
Yes - sorry I got that wrong!
derangedlemur
There's another warship shaped object out behind the buoy above the Warspite's stern. If we can identify that it might narrow the date down a bit.
Niall McAuley
Sadly, this sheet is missing from the OS 25" map site. In this streetview, you can see the same roof over the nearer station platform, but I think the original was taken from the High Road above, looking over the wall.
derangedlemur
There's a list of ships stationed in Queenstown here: www.corkshipwrecks.net/Navalfleetsqueenstown.htm
Niall McAuley
Father Brown took a picture called Two Cobh Tenders:the Flying Fox and Flying Fish, both paddle boats.
FrigateRN
Fantastic picture NLI, thank you, and just to let you know, I am receiving some very complimentary private messages about you from other NPOI site members. Your pictures, your attitude to sharing those pictures and your very friendly and open 'give and take' with viewers is very much noted and very much appreciated. The comment has been made that there are other world famous libraries out there who could take a page out of your book!
Vab2009
I tried to searchfor the tenders in the historical Lloyds Register here www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-register.html but with no success. Probably my failing.
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alimarante Frigate RN that is a nice compliment for Carol and the staff at NLI and one that the many followers of this photostream would most heartily endorse. We can all enjoy the craic and the chase to identify and know as much as we can about things but it's http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] keeping the pot stirring and putting up very suitable images that makes it so rewarding. Carol me girl take a bow!
marinaluglio
Beautiful picture!!!
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009 ("The name on the closest paddle steamer seems to be ".......... Fox") I am pretty certain that Nialls comment that the White Star Line had two tenders including Flying Fox is correct and that the tender you mention is Flying Fox. I may be deluding myself but I am sure I can see "Flying" partly obscured on the bow. Those two ships out in the harbour appear to be much larger in size that the Warspite, if you look at how far away they are and compare size of the surroundings they appear to be a lot bigger. On Warspite there appears to be some structure on the gunwale like a tube shaped object running along part of the length. In later ships there was a period when they put tubes at sea level to reduce the effects of torpedo's - it didn't work! Was this something similar?
Niall McAuley
According to this History of Tyne Tugs site, the Flying Fox paddle tug was completed in 1885, and belonged to the Clyde Shipping Company up to WW1.
Vab2009
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Well done! http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookieIt was Flying Fox and Flying Fish I hunted for. I 'll have another go :-))
B..........
Great photo!
derangedlemur
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie That's probably spaced armour but it's not an anti-torpedo measure - it's too far above the waterline.
derangedlemur
There's a thing that looks like a beached single funneled ship with two masts above the warspite's foremast, but it doesn't look like either the Xema or the Puffin (based on two images I found on the web).
Scadán Dearg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie On the tube like structure. It appears to be an integral part of the superstructure. It may be the housing for broadside guns. There are a number of openings along the side that seem to be covered with canvas. From looking at design of other ships of a similar vintage, guns at deck level were common enough.
Niall McAuley
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Here's a diagram of the Imperieuse class showing the deck level gunports and the armour.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009 Checked on original - the nearest steamer is definitely called Flying Fox... http://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alimarante http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie Thank you, gentlemen, much appreciated! Shamelessly showed compliment to my guv'nor an' all, I did... :)
Scadán Dearg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Thanks Niall!
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Thanks for location, Niall
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Brilliantly narrow date - 1893-1896! We'll go with 1894 for the moment (more or less splitting the difference). Thanks a million, everyone. Oh, just thought - is no. 89 on the locomotive engine any good for dating??
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Where's the Flying Snail when you need him? (that always brings them out to do their thing!)
Niall McAuley
I took a quick look in wikipedia, but I can't make anything from Loco 89. Wait! Spoke too soon: random googling throws up this photo GSWR/GSR clss 60/D14 No 89, designed by Aspinall, and built 1886 at Dublin Inchicore works. Rebuilt in 1925 and again in 1936 with Belpaire Z type boiler.(reclassified to class D13 from 1925 to 1933) Seen here at Limerick shed, with a large white circle on the tender to indicate to signalmen, "fitted for oil burning" Withdrawal came in 1960
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie It's like waiting outside someone's house until they're finished their tea, and can come out to play!
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Not to worry! 1893-96 is a million times better than 1865-1914. Tomorrow is another day (bringing more lovely ships)... Aaaand, before I'd finished my comment, back you came with more! :D
DannyM8
Great work everyone and great picture.
FrigateRN
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie WHAT HE SAID!
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland The interesting thing about this and the shot of Melampus is that these powerful apparently modern ships were still equipped to fire "Broadsides". Broadsides were used from the time cannon were first placed on board ships due to the lack of range, inaccuracy and the difficulty to train or move the guns around. There is a direct link therefore to Nelson, Drake and Henry VIII in the thinking behind and armament of these ships.
Scadán Dearg
Broadsides were always used, the modern WWII battleships used more manouvreable above deck turretts. See; www.angelfire.com/cantina/que_pasa/Broadside.html
derangedlemur
The Warspite at least has the main armament either in sponsons or in central turrets, so most of the big guns can be fired straight ahead. Broadsides weren't favoured because of any issue of range or accuracy; It's a simple numbers game. Unless you boat is a very odd shape you can fire an awful lot more guns out the side than you can straight ahead. The advent of armoured ships was the beginning of the end for this configuration as anything less than the biggest guns, and exploding shells capable of penetrating armour became waste of space. Secondary armaments were relegated to keeping off torpedo boats and main armaments were turreted.
derangedlemur
What I find more peculiar is the whole concept of a guardship. What precisely was the Warspite supposed to do about it if the french navy showed up at Cobh and started shelling the railway station or landing marines?
Swordscookie
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] To my mind it depends on how you define broadside. IMHO a broadside was a line of guns along the flank of the ship on one or more levels and capable of firing only on that side. The Melampus was fitted with two quick firing 6 inchers in turrests but had several guns of similar and smaller sizes fitted along the sides therefore her main armament were broadside only. The US ships in the website on Scadán Dearg's comment could turn their turrets to fire broadside but by my understanding were moving to fire broadside rather than having their main armament on the broadside. See the diagramme attached by Niall McAuley here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Apollo_class_cruiser_diagrams_...
Scadán Dearg
Fair enough although i think we are splitting hairs. "A broadside" is a term that was used for firing all available guns at the same time from the side of a ship (as opposed to firing at will). Having rotational gun turrets above deck level avoids duplication of guns on both sides.
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I've had split ends for years so hair splitting is nothing new:-D The guns in turrets were much more flexible and rapidly developed so their range and accuracy rendered my definition of broadsides redundant. I like your logo by the way, where does it come from?
patrick.vickers1
I have just downloaded a panoramic view of Queenstown taken some years ago when it was used as a naval base. Not in the best of condition so I would like your view.
Scadán Dearg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie Thanks! it is the crest on my Boat, based on the Mayo County Crest, I inserted a representation of my Achill Yawl "Saoirse" to personalise it a bit. I love this nautical theme. It's fascinating!
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
N.B. Everyone! Suggestions for THEMES on here always welcome... http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Delighted to see you like the nauticals. There'll be one more tomorrow before we all become landlubbers again.
Scadán Dearg
I think there are photo collections of indigenious work boats found around the coast of Ireland and many more than most people would imagine.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
http://www.flickr.com/photos/patvic67 Excellent! Where did you get your hands on that panorama?
FrigateRN
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie Nicely said Swordscookie, nicely said!
patrick.vickers1
This was in a job lot which I bought in a local East Sussex auction many years ago. Obviously it belonged to someone who had connections with Queenstown when it was a naval base in the early 1900's. If you are of the opinion that it may be worthy of being donated to the museum I will gladly do so. It does need a bit of work but there is plenty of helpful notes written on the back plus a pencil written name which may be deciphered. I note that there is much interest in scenes of long ago on this site.
Swordscookie
http://www.flickr.com/photos/patvic67 Good morning Patrick, what would be great would be to have that scanned in a good quality Photographic scanner to that it isn't lost. Those notes on the back may be priceless as they add to the fund of knowledge of the image and the timeframe when it was taken. It is a terrific panorama of that beautiful harbour.