Chief Secretary's Lodge now Deerfield, Phoenix Park, Dublin.

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Where: Leinster, Dublin City, Ireland

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When: Unknown

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Another day in the Phoenix Park is always welcome, especially for any of us living more than 5 Km from there in this time of "lock down". I think I know some of the history of this house, but I am very happy to wait and read the facts you discover before I comment. I have used this strategy before and it has served me well, in that most times what I thought I knew was in fact incorrect. We live and learn! Over to you.

+++ UPDATE +++
Really enjoyable stream of comments below that I would encourage you to read – arguments about official buildings in the Phoenix Park, diplomatic relations (FURIOUS Irish Bishops!), missing conservatories, windows that don't match. Not to mention a “blood-stained coat left under the drawing-room couch”...

Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Circa 1865-1914

NLI Ref: L_CAB_02650

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 19918
robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection lawrencephotographicstudio glassnegative nationallibraryofireland phoenixpark dublincity codublin dublin leinster ireland house garden chiefsecretaryslodge deerfield americanambassadorsresidence lawrencephotographcollection phoenixparkmurders

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  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 23/Feb/2021 08:17:01

    I thought Vice-Regal lodge was Aras an Uachtarain (wasn't David Norris's unofficial electoral slogan "let's put a queen back in Vice-Regal Lodge"?). This is what is now the US ambassador's residence.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/Feb/2021 08:36:46

    Yeah, this is Deerfield Residence and was the Chief Secretary's Lodge (as it says on the photo), rather than the Vice-Regal Lodge.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 08:39:58

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Yes, it looks like the "US Ambassador's Residence" - GoogleMaps Satellite 3D (takes a while to load) - www.google.com/maps/@53.3572218,-6.3338553,21a,35y,21.83h...

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/Feb/2021 08:40:00

    25" OSI

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 08:45:20

    Flickr is sometimes amazing! In 2015 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/helenmulvey/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/helenmulvey/16881746362/

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 09:03:11

    Who swiped that great big greenhouse / conservatory ?

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 09:19:30

    This is good - via Trove, an 1893 personal reminiscence of the 1882 Phoenix Park Murders - Lord Cavendish's blood-stained coat left under the drawing-room couch! - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/97465989?searchTerm=Du...

    ... Lord Frederick Cavendish was succeeded by Sir (then Mr.) George Trevelyan. He took up his residence in the Chief Secretary's lodge and thither in due time came Mrs. Trevelyan. One of the ladies about the Vice-regal Court tells me that on the day after her arrival Mrs. Trevelyan, going about the drawing-room, found hidden under a couch what looked like a dusty old coat. Taking it up, she made discovery that it was the garment in which Lord Frederick Cavendish had walked to his doom. It had been taken off the body when it was brought into the lodge, tossed aside, and there left waiting to welcome the new mistress with its gaping blood-stained wounds corresponding with those out of which had issued the life of poor blameless Frederick Cavendish.
    Edit - one of "two simple crosses cut in the earth" mentioned in the above article has been 're-discovered' (2015) - www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-finding-th... Edit 2 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Park_Murders#Memorial Edit 3 - contemporary engravings - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000169527

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    suckindeesel

    • 23/Feb/2021 09:37:19

    I can't understand how such a large area of land in the middle of a public park can be hived off for private use. Why can't he live in his embassy in Ballsbridge like the other ambassadors? I'm surprised that Flickr could actually produce a photo of the house as few people would ever had the chance to even see it. It reminds me of the old Papal Nunciature, another bit of the park given over to foreign use.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:04:07

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/18471[email protected]04] A lot of Ambassadors have a separate official residence - offhand, the British Residence is Glencairn in Leopardstown, the German Residence is in Booterstown, and I know I've seen a few more in Ballsbridge.

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    DannyM8

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:11:30

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ I read that the house and the 1 acre it stands on was sold to the Americans, the rest of the land is owned by the State.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:26:21

    The USA was one of the first countries to recognise the Free State, and the house was the residence and office of their Legation from 1927. When we became a Republic, they opened an Embassy, and kept the house as the Ambassadors residence. The Embassy moved Merrion Square, and then to the purpose built Ballsbridge carbuncle in 1964.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:33:03

    The DIA has 7entries, but nothing to help date this shot

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:37:52

    one entry says the Conservatory was there in 1870, and another that the house was remodelled in 1845 and again in 1986.

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    John Spooner

    • 23/Feb/2021 10:40:18

    I see that NLI is looking for a Poet in Residence. Is the Residence which comes with the job as grand as the ambassador's? Does the successful candidate have to share with the Marys? (asking for a friend ... who happens to be a dab hand at limericks) Screenshot_2021-02-23_10-32-02

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 11:47:01

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Ssh! Don't tell anyone - I am applying under my nom-de-plume !

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    Domhnallcos

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:23:51

    Spent a nice evening there when DIT hosted the National Science Foundation chairs in May 2014. www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50971948993/in/datepo...

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    Domhnallcos

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:34:16

    The May evening light: www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50971985993/in/album-...

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:39:27

    Hmmm - this stereo pair does not seem to have the conservatory - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000563378

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    Domhnallcos

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:43:05

    Inside the lodge www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50972811412/in/datepo...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:43:35

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Do Limericks qualify as poetry? https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:43:46

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Yes, but not in the middle of a public park. To me it smacks of the old mentality of "doffing your cap" to your betters, same for the previous presence of the Papal Nunciature in the same park. Undue reverence given to both the Vatican and the USA, IMHO

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    Domhnallcos

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:44:14

    The NSF chairs (the people with the grant money for US science www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50972708256/in/datepo...

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    Bernard Healy

    • 23/Feb/2021 12:47:40

    There are all kinds of interesting stories about the buildings in the Phoenix Park. (I think the following is accurate, but I'm working from memory here.) At one stage it was proposed that Deerfield be the residence of the Governor-General, but that plan fell through and it was leased to the Americans. At the end of the lease it was thought that Deerfield might make a good Presidential residence. However, it seems as though it'd have cost too much to renovate Deerfield, and so the Americans got to keep it AND pay for the renovations. Re: the former Papal nunciature - the ex-residence of the Undersecretary (Ashtown Lodge) in the time of British rule - that was also in a bad state and so the nunciature moved to the Navan Road in the 1970s. For a while the Irish Government thought that it might make a nice official residence for the Taoiseach, but rather than fix it up they demolished it. In the course of demolishing it, they discovered the remains of Ashtown Castle were embedded into the fabric of Ashtown Lodge, and that was retained and restored. (I'm reluctant to enter into a debate about the broader history of Ireland's diplomatic relations with the Holy See, but it's an interesting fact that the Irish Bishops were FURIOUS when the Free State established diplomatic relations with the Vatican and received a Nuncio in 1929. Prior to that point the Irish Bishops dealt directly with Rome on all manner of Church business. With a nuncio appointed they would be expected to deal with him instead, and the Bishops suspected that their business would be subject to a lot more political interference from the Government.) Anyway, the upshot of it all was that the Vice-Regal Lodge ended up becoming residence of the President almost by default because plans to stick the Governor General and the President into Deerfield failed on two occasions.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 13:07:16

    I think we had an image of the last house used by the Governor General before De Valera did away with the position, but I don't see it. I distinctly remember O'Buachalla's response to being abolished.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 23/Feb/2021 13:09:24

    Two more things: 1. The US is almost unique in having its ambassadorial appointments be political rather than professional. In most other countries you get to be an ambassador by rising through the professional diplomatic corps, whereas American ambassadorial appointments are usually given to non-professionals for political reasons. 2. Note how the upstairs windows in the middle section don't watch. That doesn't seem to be the case in Beachcomber's stereo-pair.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 23/Feb/2021 13:14:44

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Or maybe we had a picture of Maynooth where O'Buachalla had his shop? I have a vague recollection of discussing that.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 23/Feb/2021 13:17:48

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Try here: www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/35650603566/in/photolist-...

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    suckindeesel

    • 23/Feb/2021 14:02:34

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I think the Governor General wanted to use his own private residence, but that was considered a secutiry risk, so he stayed in the Park. Interesting observations re Vatican diplomatic relations and the local church. Wasn't there a cost cutting exercise a few years ago when Ireland decided it didn't need to maintain two separate embassies in Rome, one for Italy and one for the Vatican, closing the Papal one?

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    Bernard Healy

    • 23/Feb/2021 14:39:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Oh, there was a whole mess of issues surrounding the residence of the Governor General at various stages. The first Governor-General Tim Healy was kept at the Vice-Regal Lodge for security reasons, although both he and the government would have been happier for him to live in smaller quarters. I'm not sure what the story was about the second Governor-General (James McNeill), but he lived at the Vice-Regal Lodge too. Then came De Valera's Governor General, Domhnall Ua Buachalla. DeV wanted the G-G to be a very low-key role, so he was moved to a house in Monkstown. However, when the office of Governor-General was abolished in 1936, DeV tried to land the cost of renting the house in Monkstown on Ua Buachalla personally!!! The threat of a court case made DeV back down. The question of the Irish Embassy to the Holy See is an interesting one, and ties into some neuralgic political and social questions. The Irish Embassy to the Holy See (along with Ambassadorial residence) was located at a historic building called Villa Spada, not too far from the Vatican. If I understand correctly, it was purchased for a bargain price in 1946. Property prices were depressed in Rome after the war. Anyway, in 2011, the Embassy to the Holy See was closed, along with the Irish missions to Tehran and East Timor. The official reason was that it was a cost-saving measure, but it was broadly understood to serve as a rebuke to the Vatican because of the handling of abuse cases. That was never given as an official reason, but I think it was understood as such by pretty much everyone. Interestingly, at the time the British were (and still are!) increasing the prominence and activity of their Embassy to the Holy See. Anyway, the upshot was that the Embassy to Italy & the Ambassador's residence could move into Villa Spada, thereby saving money on the building that it had been renting in Rome. Ireland's ambassador to the Vatican would be based in Ireland and would fly to Rome as needed. There is an understanding in the diplomatic world that countries do not operate their Mission to the Holy See out of their Embassy to Italy for a variety of practical and symbolic reasons. A few years pass and in 2014 Ireland decides that it wants to expand its diplomatic network. So it takes the decision to open a new embassy to the Holy See - renting an embassy in Rome, albeit (understandably) a much smaller & cheaper one than the former Embassy to Italy. I suppose the irony is that what was seen as a political decision for which the public excuse was cost-saving ended up saving a lot of money. I'll add that long prior to the crisis provoked by the Cloyne Report, and so on, there were persistent rumours that the Irish were looking for a reason to convert Villa Spada from their Vatican Embassy into their Italian Embassy, although it'd probably be too cynical to say that this was definitely the case.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 15:27:50

    The conservatory was gone by 1954, there is a Morgan aerial shot in the archive, NPA MOR53

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    Niall McAuley

    • 23/Feb/2021 15:33:31

    There are also a series of photos of Frederick Sterling, the first Envoy, from 1928, e.g. INDH836

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    suckindeesel

    • 23/Feb/2021 18:46:49

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Thanks for all the info. I would think that the Vatican, as an independent state, would expect other countries to have a dedicated embassy and not one shared with their Italian one. It's all a matter of cost as well, e.g. not every country is represented in Ireland, many relying on their London embassy if they have one.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 21:06:53

    Anyone have any date ideas? Same winter's(?) day - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000337389 Different building, mis-titled? - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000325949 Vegetables in 1916 !! - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000646366 There are a few undigitized Poole photos from c. 1920 which could help - catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=chief+secretary%2...

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/Feb/2021 21:13:19

    The Lodge is looking a little unloved. Via Trove, this 1898 report of it being uninhabited for a year - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/211842232?searchTerm=D...

    Castle Rule in Ireland. — Mr. Labouchere, in a recent number of Truth , says : — " Official residences in Ireland do not seem to be popular with the holders of high office in the country who are not Irish. The Chief Secretary's Lodge in the Phoenix Park is an imposing looking building, with spacious lawns and gardens overlooking the wide-stretching Fifteen Acres, with the Dublin Mountains in the background, and has not been inhabited all this year. It lies on the opposite side of the main road from the Viceregal Lodge, the Phoenix monument standing on the road midway between the entrance gates of both residences. Mr. Gerald Balfour has been very little in Ireland lately. Would it be quite acceptable to the Scotch people to have an Irish Chief Secretary managing their affairs living chiefly in Ireland, and always out of Scotland ? Perhaps, under such circumstances, they too might develop an extra dose of original sin."

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/Feb/2021 21:15:42

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] There’s a lot of different considerations, with cost being a big driver, but also simply the benefits of having an embassy somewhere. Does Ireland have an important trading relationship (or a potential one!), is there a large Irish community? Is it an EU country? Are there historical reasons? So you end up with no Irish embassy somewhere like Serbia, but Germany gets both an Embassy in Berlin and a Consulate in Frankfurt. The countries without embassies seem to get shared out, so that Serbia is covered by the embassy in Greece. (As a further aside to my aside, in an emergency any EU country’s embassy is supposed to help EU citizens without representation.)

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/Feb/2021 22:10:41

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] I think your mis-titled one is actually more accurately titled than this one was. There were, it seems, 4 different lodges in the Phoenix Park, all of which have changed purposes and names over the years. The first 3 (the Vice-Regal Lodge, the Chief Secretary’s Lodge and the Under-Secretary’s Lodge) have been discussed above. The one you found is the 4th - the Private Secretary’s Lodge (AKA the Little Lodge now part of Ratra House). It was briefly the home of Winston Churchill while his father Lord Randolph Churchill was Private Secretary to his father, the Duke of Marlborough who was Lord Lieutenant at the time.

  • profile

    Flickr

    • 24/Feb/2021 04:15:19

    Congrats on Explore! ⭐ February 23, 2021

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    s0340248

    • 24/Feb/2021 05:15:44

    Glückwunsch zu Explore ! ! !

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    gato-gato-gato

    • 24/Feb/2021 06:29:51

    Sehr schönes Foto.

  • profile

    BP Chua

    • 24/Feb/2021 07:10:03

    Nice shot. Congratulations on Explore

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    incognito7nyc

    • 24/Feb/2021 07:32:20

    ✨🌟★❤✯♥♡✨ Very beautiful ✨♡♥✯❤★🌟✨

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    waewduan4

    • 24/Feb/2021 09:06:07

    👍 Congrats !!

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    acceptable lip

    • 24/Feb/2021 09:24:49

     Magnificent pic! ;-)

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    imatges blanc i negre

    • 24/Feb/2021 09:40:15

    Un bon tret i un excel.lent b/n. Felicitats. ⭐👏👏

  • profile

    lynnlindsay

    • 24/Feb/2021 13:03:46

    Just Beautiful !!!!!!! Many Congratulations on Explore !!!!!!

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    miguelitoiglesias777

    • 24/Feb/2021 16:20:05

    SEEN ON EXPLORER PHOTOS FROM 2021 AND ALSO OF THE PAST, www.flickr.com/groups/[email protected]/ www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/22519426815/in/datepo...

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    le cabri

    • 24/Feb/2021 16:32:32

    Well done

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    Thea Prum

    • 25/Feb/2021 00:08:53

    nice This wonderful photo was seen and admired in: E-X-P-L-O-R-E .

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    suckindeesel

    • 25/Feb/2021 07:40:45

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I think the first port of call would remain the British Embassy, EU or no EU.