Chief Secretary's Lodge now Deerfield, Phoenix Park, Dublin.
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Where: Leinster, Dublin City, Ireland
Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.
When: Unknown
Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Another day in the Phoenix Park is always welcome, especially for any of us living more than 5 Km from there in this time of "lock down". I think I know some of the history of this house, but I am very happy to wait and read the facts you discover before I comment. I have used this strategy before and it has served me well, in that most times what I thought I knew was in fact incorrect. We live and learn! Over to you.
+++ UPDATE +++
Really enjoyable stream of comments below that I would encourage you to read – arguments about official buildings in the Phoenix Park, diplomatic relations (FURIOUS Irish Bishops!), missing conservatories, windows that don't match. Not to mention a “blood-stained coat left under the drawing-room couch”...
Photographer: Robert French
Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection
Date: Circa 1865-1914
NLI Ref: L_CAB_02650
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 59229
+++ UPDATE +++
Really enjoyable stream of comments below that I would encourage you to read – arguments about official buildings in the Phoenix Park, diplomatic relations (FURIOUS Irish Bishops!), missing conservatories, windows that don't match. Not to mention a “blood-stained coat left under the drawing-room couch”...
Photographer: Robert French
Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection
Date: Circa 1865-1914
NLI Ref: L_CAB_02650
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 59229
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derangedlemur
I thought Vice-Regal lodge was Aras an Uachtarain (wasn't David Norris's unofficial electoral slogan "let's put a queen back in Vice-Regal Lodge"?). This is what is now the US ambassador's residence.
sharon.corbet
Yeah, this is Deerfield Residence and was the Chief Secretary's Lodge (as it says on the photo), rather than the Vice-Regal Lodge.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Yes, it looks like the "US Ambassador's Residence" - GoogleMaps Satellite 3D (takes a while to load) - www.google.com/maps/@53.3572218,-6.3338553,21a,35y,21.83h...
sharon.corbet
25" OSI
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Flickr is sometimes amazing! In 2015 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/helenmulvey/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/helenmulvey/16881746362/
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Who swiped that great big greenhouse / conservatory ?
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
This is good - via Trove, an 1893 personal reminiscence of the 1882 Phoenix Park Murders - Lord Cavendish's blood-stained coat left under the drawing-room couch! - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/97465989?searchTerm=Du...
Edit - one of "two simple crosses cut in the earth" mentioned in the above article has been 're-discovered' (2015) - www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-finding-th... Edit 2 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Park_Murders#Memorial Edit 3 - contemporary engravings - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000169527suckindeesel
I can't understand how such a large area of land in the middle of a public park can be hived off for private use. Why can't he live in his embassy in Ballsbridge like the other ambassadors? I'm surprised that Flickr could actually produce a photo of the house as few people would ever had the chance to even see it. It reminds me of the old Papal Nunciature, another bit of the park given over to foreign use.
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] A lot of Ambassadors have a separate official residence - offhand, the British Residence is Glencairn in Leopardstown, the German Residence is in Booterstown, and I know I've seen a few more in Ballsbridge.
DannyM8
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ I read that the house and the 1 acre it stands on was sold to the Americans, the rest of the land is owned by the State.
Niall McAuley
The USA was one of the first countries to recognise the Free State, and the house was the residence and office of their Legation from 1927. When we became a Republic, they opened an Embassy, and kept the house as the Ambassadors residence. The Embassy moved Merrion Square, and then to the purpose built Ballsbridge carbuncle in 1964.
Niall McAuley
The DIA has 7entries, but nothing to help date this shot
Niall McAuley
one entry says the Conservatory was there in 1870, and another that the house was remodelled in 1845 and again in 1986.
John Spooner
I see that NLI is looking for a Poet in Residence. Is the Residence which comes with the job as grand as the ambassador's? Does the successful candidate have to share with the Marys? (asking for a friend ... who happens to be a dab hand at limericks)
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Ssh! Don't tell anyone - I am applying under my nom-de-plume !
Domhnallcos
Spent a nice evening there when DIT hosted the National Science Foundation chairs in May 2014. www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50971948993/in/datepo...
Domhnallcos
The May evening light: www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50971985993/in/album-...
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Hmmm - this stereo pair does not seem to have the conservatory - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000563378
Domhnallcos
Inside the lodge www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50972811412/in/datepo...
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Do Limericks qualify as poetry? https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia
suckindeesel
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Yes, but not in the middle of a public park. To me it smacks of the old mentality of "doffing your cap" to your betters, same for the previous presence of the Papal Nunciature in the same park. Undue reverence given to both the Vatican and the USA, IMHO
Domhnallcos
The NSF chairs (the people with the grant money for US science www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/50972708256/in/datepo...
Bernard Healy
There are all kinds of interesting stories about the buildings in the Phoenix Park. (I think the following is accurate, but I'm working from memory here.) At one stage it was proposed that Deerfield be the residence of the Governor-General, but that plan fell through and it was leased to the Americans. At the end of the lease it was thought that Deerfield might make a good Presidential residence. However, it seems as though it'd have cost too much to renovate Deerfield, and so the Americans got to keep it AND pay for the renovations. Re: the former Papal nunciature - the ex-residence of the Undersecretary (Ashtown Lodge) in the time of British rule - that was also in a bad state and so the nunciature moved to the Navan Road in the 1970s. For a while the Irish Government thought that it might make a nice official residence for the Taoiseach, but rather than fix it up they demolished it. In the course of demolishing it, they discovered the remains of Ashtown Castle were embedded into the fabric of Ashtown Lodge, and that was retained and restored. (I'm reluctant to enter into a debate about the broader history of Ireland's diplomatic relations with the Holy See, but it's an interesting fact that the Irish Bishops were FURIOUS when the Free State established diplomatic relations with the Vatican and received a Nuncio in 1929. Prior to that point the Irish Bishops dealt directly with Rome on all manner of Church business. With a nuncio appointed they would be expected to deal with him instead, and the Bishops suspected that their business would be subject to a lot more political interference from the Government.) Anyway, the upshot of it all was that the Vice-Regal Lodge ended up becoming residence of the President almost by default because plans to stick the Governor General and the President into Deerfield failed on two occasions.
Niall McAuley
I think we had an image of the last house used by the Governor General before De Valera did away with the position, but I don't see it. I distinctly remember O'Buachalla's response to being abolished.
Bernard Healy
Two more things: 1. The US is almost unique in having its ambassadorial appointments be political rather than professional. In most other countries you get to be an ambassador by rising through the professional diplomatic corps, whereas American ambassadorial appointments are usually given to non-professionals for political reasons. 2. Note how the upstairs windows in the middle section don't watch. That doesn't seem to be the case in Beachcomber's stereo-pair.
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Or maybe we had a picture of Maynooth where O'Buachalla had his shop? I have a vague recollection of discussing that.
Bernard Healy
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Try here: www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/35650603566/in/photolist-...
suckindeesel
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I think the Governor General wanted to use his own private residence, but that was considered a secutiry risk, so he stayed in the Park. Interesting observations re Vatican diplomatic relations and the local church. Wasn't there a cost cutting exercise a few years ago when Ireland decided it didn't need to maintain two separate embassies in Rome, one for Italy and one for the Vatican, closing the Papal one?
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Oh, there was a whole mess of issues surrounding the residence of the Governor General at various stages. The first Governor-General Tim Healy was kept at the Vice-Regal Lodge for security reasons, although both he and the government would have been happier for him to live in smaller quarters. I'm not sure what the story was about the second Governor-General (James McNeill), but he lived at the Vice-Regal Lodge too. Then came De Valera's Governor General, Domhnall Ua Buachalla. DeV wanted the G-G to be a very low-key role, so he was moved to a house in Monkstown. However, when the office of Governor-General was abolished in 1936, DeV tried to land the cost of renting the house in Monkstown on Ua Buachalla personally!!! The threat of a court case made DeV back down. The question of the Irish Embassy to the Holy See is an interesting one, and ties into some neuralgic political and social questions. The Irish Embassy to the Holy See (along with Ambassadorial residence) was located at a historic building called Villa Spada, not too far from the Vatican. If I understand correctly, it was purchased for a bargain price in 1946. Property prices were depressed in Rome after the war. Anyway, in 2011, the Embassy to the Holy See was closed, along with the Irish missions to Tehran and East Timor. The official reason was that it was a cost-saving measure, but it was broadly understood to serve as a rebuke to the Vatican because of the handling of abuse cases. That was never given as an official reason, but I think it was understood as such by pretty much everyone. Interestingly, at the time the British were (and still are!) increasing the prominence and activity of their Embassy to the Holy See. Anyway, the upshot was that the Embassy to Italy & the Ambassador's residence could move into Villa Spada, thereby saving money on the building that it had been renting in Rome. Ireland's ambassador to the Vatican would be based in Ireland and would fly to Rome as needed. There is an understanding in the diplomatic world that countries do not operate their Mission to the Holy See out of their Embassy to Italy for a variety of practical and symbolic reasons. A few years pass and in 2014 Ireland decides that it wants to expand its diplomatic network. So it takes the decision to open a new embassy to the Holy See - renting an embassy in Rome, albeit (understandably) a much smaller & cheaper one than the former Embassy to Italy. I suppose the irony is that what was seen as a political decision for which the public excuse was cost-saving ended up saving a lot of money. I'll add that long prior to the crisis provoked by the Cloyne Report, and so on, there were persistent rumours that the Irish were looking for a reason to convert Villa Spada from their Vatican Embassy into their Italian Embassy, although it'd probably be too cynical to say that this was definitely the case.
Niall McAuley
The conservatory was gone by 1954, there is a Morgan aerial shot in the archive, NPA MOR53
Niall McAuley
There are also a series of photos of Frederick Sterling, the first Envoy, from 1928, e.g. INDH836
suckindeesel
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Thanks for all the info. I would think that the Vatican, as an independent state, would expect other countries to have a dedicated embassy and not one shared with their Italian one. It's all a matter of cost as well, e.g. not every country is represented in Ireland, many relying on their London embassy if they have one.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Anyone have any date ideas? Same winter's(?) day - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000337389 Different building, mis-titled? - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000325949 Vegetables in 1916 !! - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000646366 There are a few undigitized Poole photos from c. 1920 which could help - catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=chief+secretary%2...
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
The Lodge is looking a little unloved. Via Trove, this 1898 report of it being uninhabited for a year - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/211842232?searchTerm=D...
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] There’s a lot of different considerations, with cost being a big driver, but also simply the benefits of having an embassy somewhere. Does Ireland have an important trading relationship (or a potential one!), is there a large Irish community? Is it an EU country? Are there historical reasons? So you end up with no Irish embassy somewhere like Serbia, but Germany gets both an Embassy in Berlin and a Consulate in Frankfurt. The countries without embassies seem to get shared out, so that Serbia is covered by the embassy in Greece. (As a further aside to my aside, in an emergency any EU country’s embassy is supposed to help EU citizens without representation.)
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] I think your mis-titled one is actually more accurately titled than this one was. There were, it seems, 4 different lodges in the Phoenix Park, all of which have changed purposes and names over the years. The first 3 (the Vice-Regal Lodge, the Chief Secretary’s Lodge and the Under-Secretary’s Lodge) have been discussed above. The one you found is the 4th - the Private Secretary’s Lodge (AKA the Little Lodge now part of Ratra House). It was briefly the home of Winston Churchill while his father Lord Randolph Churchill was Private Secretary to his father, the Duke of Marlborough who was Lord Lieutenant at the time.
Flickr
Congrats on Explore! ⭐ February 23, 2021
s0340248
Glückwunsch zu Explore ! ! !
gato-gato-gato
Sehr schönes Foto.
BP Chua
Nice shot. Congratulations on Explore
incognito7nyc
✨🌟★❤✯♥♡✨ Very beautiful ✨♡♥✯❤★🌟✨
waewduan4
👍 Congrats !!
imatges blanc i negre
Un bon tret i un excel.lent b/n. Felicitats. ⭐👏👏
breezy tent
Just Beautiful !!!!!!! Many Congratulations on Explore !!!!!!
le cabri
Well done
Thea Prum
nice This wonderful photo was seen and admired in: E-X-P-L-O-R-E .
suckindeesel
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I think the first port of call would remain the British Embassy, EU or no EU.