Robertson group in trap

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What a great photo, I presume of the Robertson family and their associated animals. Unusually we do not have a short address which is a common when we are dealing with the Poole collection, I expect the location will be difficult to find.? There are quite a few whips and guns on view, perhaps this photo was a prelude to a hunting party?

Photographer: A. H. Poole

Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford

Date: between ca. 1901 and 1954 1888 or 1889 see comments below.

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 0112a

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 10340
ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland robinson dog horse trap donkey whip gun newtownlodge census poolephotographiccollection

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  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 10/Sep/2020 06:45:48

    This crew, maybe? www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Water...

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    derangedlemur

    • 10/Sep/2020 06:47:06

    Though that appears to be this house (assuming they started counting from the Waterford end), which doesn't match the picture: goo.gl/maps/crpHqyyzhEiKrY256

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    derangedlemur

    • 10/Sep/2020 06:50:32

    And if it's this one, both the porch and the windows are new: goo.gl/maps/v5WQ9UsKe4byLCjr9

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    Foxglove

    • 10/Sep/2020 07:41:55

    early bird gets the dog 🐩

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    DannyM8

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:06:55

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ Are you trying to make me redundant?

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    cargeofg

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:15:50

    The ruled and lined plaster work to the right of the door seems to have a lot of bullet holes in it. No marks to left hand side or near upper windows.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:16:53

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I see from the census record that you refer to that the house has 9 windows to the front.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:18:58

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] interesting, not a good place for target practice!

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    cargeofg

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:27:40

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland My thoughts as well. Whatever about breaking a window. That front room would not be the best place to have your morning coffee or afternoon tea !

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    maczeug2

    • 10/Sep/2020 08:41:07

     Excellent work ;-)

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:00:16

    The census entry must be the Robertson brothers, drapers on the Quay, we have heard of them before.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:10:07

    I think they lived in Newtown Lodge. Looks like a match at the NIAH

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    derangedlemur

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:14:26

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley I didn't put in a huge amount of effort because I knew you'd be along in a minute.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:17:28

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Funny!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:29:39

    In 1901, Elizabeth, the mother, is 61 and her 11 chldren in residence are 37 down to 15. Youngest Frank was born in 1885. I'd say we are in the 1890s somewhere as the youngest here are less than 10.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:40:54

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Yes, the bowler hats and small peaked caps looking early 1890s. We have had several earlier-than-expected Poole photos before. Can't remember where.

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    rpgvlwqt88

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:52:22

    Robertson, Ledlie, Ferguson & Co Ltd (1880 -1979) Locations: Castle Place, Belfast, Northern Ireland Munster Arcade , Cork, Ireland 53 Quay , Waterford, Ireland 61 William Street, Dublin, Ireland

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:52:50

    James Robertson, the da, died in 1887 aged 63, when Frank would have been 2ish. If that is James Snr with the whiskers, the year is 1887. Frank is 2, and at his mothers knee. Nore is 7, on the donkey. Margaret is 9, sitting with Frank and her mother. John is 12, standing with the donkey. Lillie is 13, sitting with her mother. Amelia is 15, standing behind Lillie. Frances is 17, standing by her father. After that, I am not so sure, as there are more children than are in the census.

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    rpgvlwqt88

    • 10/Sep/2020 09:57:35

    Headstone from St John's Hill, Waterford No. 460 In memory of | ELSPIT LILLIE GALL | Who died April 24th 1873 | Aged 1 year and 6 months | Also MARY BELLA | Who died March 19th 1878 | Aged 16 years. | The beloved children of | JAMES and LIZZIE ROBERTSON | Newtown Lodge Waterford | JAMES ROBERTSON | Our beloved father | Fell asleep January 27th 1887 | Also | Our loving mother | ELIZABETH ROBERTSON | Who passed peacefully away | March 8th 1909 William Hobson, First Governer of New Zealand was born at the house dib.cambridge.org/viewReadPage.do?articleId=a4041

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:08:58

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley If it _isn't_ James Snr, it it possible that many of the people pictured are wearing mourning clothes?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:10:43

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Given James died 27/01/1887 this photo must be 1886 or a little earlier, I think the flowers and clothing suggest late Spring / Summer?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:16:27

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Good point, I will let the date change stand for the moment.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:19:44

    Not in the census, Arthur, born April 1869. Elspet Lillie Gall, September 1871, died at a year and a half. Elizabeth (the mother)'s maiden name was Gall. Violet Blanche, December 1877. The oldest Lizzie and Mary Bella are too early for the birth records.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:34:00

    Frank was born in September 1885. There are flowers in the flower bed behind, I'd say it is no later in the year than September. In this shot, Frank is standing up and wearing boots. He has a haircut. No way he is just 12 or even 15 months old. So, I think that can't be James Snr with the whiskers.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:36:07

    Violet Blanche was still a spinster when she died in 1951 aged 74. In 1901, she is listed as the "Housekeeper" of the digs in town where all the drapery workers are boarding. She is at home in the 1911 census as posted by the lemur originally. Likewise in 1901, Arthur is not at home because he is heading up digs for some of the men working at the drapery.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:45:34

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I'm dubious about either the dating or the identification of the children. If the youngest child here is Frank Roberston, he was born 23 September 1885. If this photo is Spring/Summer 1886, he wouldn't even be one year old. James Robertson Snr died 27 January 1887. That would put a maximum age of about 1 year 4 months on Frank in any picture with his father. Note also, per death cert, the cause of death was Cirrhosis of liver (1 year), Kidney disease (6 months), so would he have been heading out to shoot in the months before his death? I'm also dubious about the fact that the chap with the side-whiskers isn't dressed in the same kind of dark/black outfit that the rest of the family seem to be wearing. To my eyes he doesn't fit. Is he a gamekeeper? A neighbour? A more distant relative? I'm still inclined to the theory that the family seem to be wearing mourning. However, I'm not sure whether that squares with them heading out to shoot & having their photo taken.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:55:19

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Niall, I see we're making a similar point. I didn't spot your contribution before posting. For some reason there seems to be a 'lag' in the appearance on comments on my computer.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:55:43

    I see death records in Waterford for Lizzie, Charles and William, all died unmarried. Amelia Jane in Greystones, 1952, Arthur also Greystones, 1937 both unmarried. Lillie in Blackrock, unmarried. I don't see a single marriage record for any of them.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:55:47

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Dubiousness noted!

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    derangedlemur

    • 10/Sep/2020 10:57:25

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000589934 I don't think that's mourning. The women could as easily be in red as black, remember.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:02:43

    I think the little guy is Frank, but he is 3, not 1. I don't know who Whiskers is.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:04:01

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] He appears in this pic too. catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000589933

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:07:17

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I think on balance that the sporting paraphernalia trumps the idea of mourning?

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    cargeofg

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:13:02

    I though the man in the whiskers was holding a canvas bag for a fishing rod. But on megazoom it appears to be a long single barrel gun as there is a sighting bead visible at the end. Wild fowling guns of this period had longer barrels that shotguns which had barrel lengths of 26" to 32".

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:17:48

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland That's a fair observation. I don't know enough about Victorian mourning customs to know the precise rules. On the other hand, given the death of James Snr in January 1887, I would imagine that an understanding of how long the widow and the rest of the family were expected to mourn can give us some boundaries on the dating of the pic. e.g. If 2 years mourning was expected, and we assume that this family are not in mourning, then Spring/Summer 1889 looks more plausible, especially if we assume that the youngest child is Frank (born Sept 1885).

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:28:01

    Okay - have a look at this pic: catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000589931 Given that "Whiskers" has his hands on the shoulders of the two young ladies, I don't suppose he can be a servant/gamekeeper. If he's not their father, one would have to think that he's an uncle or other close relation.

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    cargeofg

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:28:35

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley In 0112b Same hammer side lever double barrel shot gun and long barrel gun visable also lying in trap. With the rod on barrel underneath it looks if is a muzzle loader.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 11:37:21

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Agreed.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 13:20:15

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] What should the date read now with all we have discovered?

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    cargeofg

    • 10/Sep/2020 13:41:02

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Would certainly agree with you as to the hands on the shoulders of the young ladies. A servant would not be allowed to do that. So uncle or brother in law to be that familiar. Time of year Spring Summer. flowers in background look in full bloom and all the windows are open for fresh air.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 10/Sep/2020 13:50:07

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I'm not sure. If we are happy that the youngest child present is definitely Frank, then I'd say we are almost certainly in the 1888-1890 period.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Sep/2020 14:24:00

    The youngest has to be Frank, it's 1888 or 9.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Sep/2020 14:50:13

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Thank you, updated. Mary

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    nl042

    • 10/Sep/2020 17:22:34

    The tall flowers look much like Japanese anemones, so given their flowering season, it's summer or early autumn, rather than spring, probably mid July to late September. As for all the small holes peppering the wall behind Whiskers and the couple in the buggy. If they haven't been practicing with those shotguns, could they be nail holes from removed trellises? They are at least semi-regular, so if they are bullet holes, someone was a damned fine shot. 👍

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    thelimbreaper

    • 11/Sep/2020 01:30:03

    Look at that spiders web window. Perfect for Halloween.

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    derangedlemur

    • 11/Sep/2020 06:04:37

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Good point - bullet holes always surround apertures; they don't just fill up a blank bit of wall.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 11/Sep/2020 14:47:39

    There are more holes in the wall behind the trap, creeper there too at some earlier stage (and again today). POOLE 3993, sadly undigitized, is titled: Carte de visite vignette commissioned by Miss Fanny Robertson, Newtown Lodge ca. 1890

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    Niall McAuley

    • 11/Sep/2020 14:58:10

    I wonder if this archive shot of Miss Robertson (and a man who is not mentioned) from 1928 is two of our group, 40 years later. POOLEWP 3506 Miss Robertson, Annefield House, Piltown Edit - probably not. In 1911 we have Jessie, Myra and Helene Robertson in Piltown.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 11/Sep/2020 15:07:51

    POOLEWP 0647 is the massive drapery on Meaghers Quay. It is now Shaws, but still has a Robertson, Ledlie, Ferguson & Co. Ltd sign down the side in Streetview

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    Bernard Healy

    • 12/Sep/2020 09:02:40

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ The poster advertising Dr Jaeger’s Sanitary Woollen Clothing System places means the shop picture comes from 1884 or after (the foundation of the Jaeger brand) & refers to a German theory about the health benefits of woollen underwear.

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    Dr. Ilia

    • 15/Sep/2020 08:00:03

    Cool capture

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    Inverarra

    • 30/Sep/2020 20:23:24

    A stunning photo. Thanks.