On the wrong side of the tracks...

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Where: Unknown

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When: 01 April 1920

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To end a week where we had 500 years of Jesuits in Limerick, a fiddle for a tombstone, Star Wars in CIE, and Napoleon of the Confederacy, we have an image from none other than the Roger Casement collection!! A small photograph showing some railroad tracks and local stores with lots of people about. I am almost drooling at the prospect of what might be discovered about this scene...

Photographers: Sir Roger Casement(?)

Collection: Roger Casement Photographic Collection

Date: April 1920(?!)

NLI Ref: NPA CAS12D

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 7264
nationallibraryofireland nli rogercasementphotographiccollection sirrogercasement florida riverjunction railwaytracks generalstore people usa rogercasement america railways railroads

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  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:24:38

    Sir Roger Casement 1864 - 1916, and this photo is 1920. Hmmm... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Casement

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    derangedlemur

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:27:57

    There's a Scarborough & co based out of Milford, NH, that would be old enough. They seem to have been a soap company, so this may not be them.

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:29:35

    The post office sign reads "River Junction, FLA", the photo is catalogued "River Junction, Florida" by the NLI, and the text on the back of the photo reads "River Junction, Florida" Here's a transcript of a newspaper article on the history of River Junction, Florida: fl-genweb.org/gadsden/Social-1927_Sep8.html

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    derangedlemur

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:31:08

    With those biodegradable building styles, it could easily be round here and we'd never prove it: goo.gl/maps/14Ao4vpe1cpc5ke98

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:32:42

    Perhaps the photo was taken around here? www.google.ie/maps/@30.6847376,-84.8413201,3a,75y,295.83h...

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    derangedlemur

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:37:06

    Florence wagons is a better lead: "The Florence Wagon Company opened in 1889 in Florence, Ala., when owner A.D. Bellamy moved his Atlanta Wagon Works to town..." Let's see what else there is.

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 26/Jun/2020 08:56:09

    This transcript from a newspaper of local notes from River Junction, Florida, from 1925 records that: "The many friends of Miss Estelle Emanuel are glad to know she has returned to the city, and is employed by Scarborough & Co." (Best to use CTRL+F to find 'Scarborough' on this page) fl-genweb.org/gadsden/Social-1925_Nov12.html

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 26/Jun/2020 09:06:03

    Here's a great account of the time the safe in Scarborough & Co in River Junction was blown open in April 1907 and one of the alleged perpetrators was arrested on the train to Jacksonville! Apparently they stole around $200, and some clothing, and their safe-blowing exploits started a fire which caused a lot of damage... ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00075905/00047/9x

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    John Spooner

    • 26/Jun/2020 09:40:58

    Scarborough & co, River Junction with a different form of transport in the foreground. Different building?

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    cargeofg

    • 26/Jun/2020 09:45:39

    US railroad gauge 4ft- 8 1/2 ins came from Europe as George Stephenson adopted it from tramways at a coal mine. In 1870 when there were excavations at Pompeii an American engineer measured the cart and chariot ruts at 4ft-9ins centre to centre. Stephenson first used 4ft-8ins but increased it by a half inch to give more lateral play to the wheel bogies.

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    John Spooner

    • 26/Jun/2020 09:46:55

    In this picture of Scarborough & Co from 1974, there are the same number of posts supporting the verandah as in the 1920 photo. Possibly at some point the big facade was added, and an upper floor.

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    abandoned railways

    • 26/Jun/2020 10:08:31

    This looks like broad gauge. This line was changed to standard gauge (4'8") in 1886.

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    cargeofg

    • 26/Jun/2020 11:20:19

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_States [There were a lot of gauges used in the States more that 5ft and 6ft ones that I was knew of. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/abandonedrailsireland]

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 26/Jun/2020 11:45:18

    Seems to be 4 railroads to the town in 1936. Apalachicola Northern, Louisville and Nashville and the Atlantic Coast Line and the Seabord Air Line. fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/2000/f2059/f2059.htm

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    suckindeesel

    • 26/Jun/2020 12:56:20

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner any location for that store?

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 26/Jun/2020 12:59:47

    I think [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s streetview is in the right place and direction. See also this 1922 map which tells what the various buildings were made of, for fire insurance purposes - www.loc.gov/resource/g3934rm.g3934rm_g013391922/?sp=1&... ps There was also a fire there on 2/4/1921 which with the floods might explain the rebuilds - [Ed. link fixed] - www.floridamemory.com/items/show/7911 What has any of this to do with Sir Roger Casement?

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 26/Jun/2020 14:04:03

    I have just been looking through the Casement collection on NLI, stunning,

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    John Spooner

    • 26/Jun/2020 16:15:16

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Only that it's at River Junction, Gadsden County. I couldn't help noticing that Gadsden County has a Dogtown. Where's https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ?.

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    DannyM8

    • 26/Jun/2020 16:28:00

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ What a nice name!!

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    suckindeesel

    • 26/Jun/2020 17:49:32

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner "The southern part of the city includes the community of River Junction at 30°41′N 84°50′W (30.686, -84.841). In the mid-1880s, River Junction was established as a railroad connection point between the Florida Central & Western, later the Seaboard Air Line, and the Pensacola & Atlantic. The connecting track survives" Wikipedia

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 26/Jun/2020 18:19:06

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia That 1922 map is fantastic! I think the building to the right of the Post Office in our photo was gone by the time that map was made, possibly in the fire of 1921

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    John Spooner

    • 26/Jun/2020 20:15:28

    There's also a Florence (pop 10,000),described as "an area in Havana, Gadsden County, "

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 26/Jun/2020 21:47:54

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Those trees behind could be cornus florida or flowering dogwood - you can tell by the bark ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornus_florida 🐕🌳

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    DannyM8

    • 26/Jun/2020 22:00:56

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ 🐕

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    suckindeesel

    • 26/Jun/2020 23:45:16

    ".........We are told that if Irishmen go by the thousand to die, not for Ireland, but for Flanders, for Belgium, for a patch of sand on the deserts of Mesopotamia, or a rocky trench on the heights of Gallipoli, they are winning self-government for Ireland. But if they dare to lay down their lives on their native soil, if they dare to dream even that freedom can be won only at home by men resolved to fight for it there, then they are traitors to their country, and their dream and their deaths alike are phases of a dishonourable phantasy........" R. Casement, speech from the Dock

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    suckindeesel

    • 27/Jun/2020 12:58:07

    Casement did tour the States, between July and October 1914, but whether he ever got to Florida I've no idea. And of course the 1920 date, if correct, doesn't match. It does look like a picture from some colonial Heart of Darkness, either Peru or the Congo, but is in fact Hicksville USA. Streets unpaved, kerosene street lighting and no fire dept. or proper water supply. https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia 's map exactly matches the photo. It's even possible to locate the spot between the tracks from where it was taken. The landscape has completely changed in streetview, but still shows Main and Chattahochee Streets. If not Casement, then who? The Florida location doesn't match anything in the collections, nor does Georgia, its neighbour. So, this photo remains something of a mystery,

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    suckindeesel

    • 27/Jun/2020 21:37:33

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/abandonedrailsireland https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Changed in the southern states from 5-ft in 1886, even Ireland had about four gauges before standardisation, not counting narrow.

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    suckindeesel

    • 28/Jun/2020 12:33:11

    There is a Florida link to Casement, the house he occupied in Irving St, see catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748204/HierarchyTree Other than that 1920 date on reverse, it probably would be accepted as a Casement photo. Is anything known about his travels in Florida?

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 28/Jun/2020 16:57:05

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I don't know how Florida was applied to that photo in the NLI catalogue - all it says on the reverse is 'Irving Street'. I couldn't find a similar Irving Street in Florida, but I think it refers to Irving Street in Hartford, Connecticut. Note the street sign in your photo - it matches 'Homestead Ave.' which crosses Irving St in Hartford and the houses match up too. Here's 'Irving Street' from the Casement Collection: catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748204 And here's the matching Streetview: www.google.ie/maps/@41.7758713,-72.6878395,3a,51.2y,41.8h... Also in the Casement Collection is '6 and 8 Irving Street': catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748201 And here's the matching Streetview: www.google.ie/maps/@41.7761028,-72.6875837,3a,48.6y,91.84... In short, we can now suggest Casement spent time in Hartford, Connecticut, but we are no wiser about the Casement - Florida connection.

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    Rory_Sherlock

    • 28/Jun/2020 17:16:19

    Is there a Casement connection here at all??? I can find only four photos in the Casement Collection with a connection to the USA (after a very cursory look through it) - the River Junction photo, the two Irving Street photos and this one (catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748174)... all four are stamped 'Joly Collection' on the reverse... Do they really belong in the Casement Collection?

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    suckindeesel

    • 28/Jun/2020 18:33:45

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Dev was in Hartford in 1920 www.rte.ie/centuryireland/index.php/tags/irish%20americans dead link Chasing the wrong person? PS He also visited Florida in 1920

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    suckindeesel

    • 28/Jun/2020 18:38:24

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] That's the correct Irving St., all I could find were rural roads in Florida.

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    suckindeesel

    • 28/Jun/2020 21:31:21

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] No discernible Casement connection, just misfiled?. Joly Collection could refer to late 19th century bequest to NLI, unlikely. Could refer to John Joly, photographer, the period is right.

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    suckindeesel

    • 02/Nov/2020 17:48:06

    "The other night I dreamed that you, Gee and I were at Murlough Bay, on the green hill, 900 feet above the sea, close to the McCarry’s house, looking out at the racing tides of Moyle, churning currents and whirlpools, and overlapping tides, and Alba across the way, and the blue peaks of Jura clean and clear; the great panorama of island and hill and swirling waters that first made me realize what Ireland was to me.” R. Casement, jailhouse letter written before his execution In this, his wish couldn't be honoured, as the UK government imposed the condition for the return of his body that he could only be interred in the ROI.