Kate Moran R.I.P.
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Where: Munster, Waterford, Ireland
Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.
When: 05 September 1921
Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Welcome to the first (and only) weekend edition on this stream. We are delighted to present this Poole photograph for your comment. Our catalogue entry reads “Tombstone of Kate Moran who died July 1st 1920, commissioned by Mrs. Noran, Johns Avenue, Waterford”. I would guess that Mrs Noran should be Mrs Moran? I’m confused already. Over to you.
+++ UPDATE +++
We found out that this photograph was taken in St. Mary’s graveyard in Ballygunner, Waterford. Kate, or Catherine Moran, died on 1 July 1920, at age 60 rather than 65 as it says on this gravestone. Or did she? This is another fine example of fuzzy ages on official documentation, as Kate Moran was recorded as 48 in the 1901 census, but 55 in 1911. She was recorded as 20 when she married mason James Moran in 1874, which implies she was indeed 65 when she died, but this also means that Kate was married to James for 37 years in 1911, not 32 years as it says in the 1911 census.
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: ca. 5 September 1921
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2948
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 12340
+++ UPDATE +++
We found out that this photograph was taken in St. Mary’s graveyard in Ballygunner, Waterford. Kate, or Catherine Moran, died on 1 July 1920, at age 60 rather than 65 as it says on this gravestone. Or did she? This is another fine example of fuzzy ages on official documentation, as Kate Moran was recorded as 48 in the 1901 census, but 55 in 1911. She was recorded as 20 when she married mason James Moran in 1874, which implies she was indeed 65 when she died, but this also means that Kate was married to James for 37 years in 1911, not 32 years as it says in the 1911 census.
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: ca. 5 September 1921
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2948
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 12340
ahpoole
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katemoran
jamesmoran
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tombstone
1920
johnsavenue
waterford
munster
ireland
noran
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stmarysgraveyard
ballygunner
buckley
annebuckley
johnbuckley
timothybuckley
michaelbuckley
photoshopping
firstweekend
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National Library of Ireland on The Commons
I am thinking that the headstone on the left might draw the most comments? Let the weekend games begin.
sharon.corbet
Further confusion - according to the death record for Catherine Moran, she was 60 when she died rather than 65.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
5 September 1921 was a Monday ... 1 July 1920 was a Thursday ...
sharon.corbet
It's in St. Mary's graveyard in Ballygunner. (Graves 441 and 334.)
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yes, I bet there is a dreadful story to the Buckleys on the left. Imagine having three sons die before you.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Very strannge indeed, I can understand a year or maybe 2 but 5 years difference!
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia very difficult on poor Mrs Buckley, I wonder how big was her family?
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
"Avenue: a broad road in a town or city, typically having trees at regular intervals along its sides." John's Avenue, Waterford lacks broadness and a few trees. No.8 is/was (rebuilt?) on the right opposite the blue house. Streeview - goo.gl/maps/TBbvH9t44ZPKJjZXA
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] Here is Anne Buckley in 1911. At that point, only 3 of her 6 children were living, and from the gravestone inscription, another 2 died in the following year.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I see she is 55 in 1911 census and on the 1901 she is 48? James is 54 and 47? Did people generally not know their exact ages?
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Here is Mary Margaret Sage in the 1911 census living in Railway Square, [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] it ties in exactly with your death certificate.
cargeofg
A bit of editing has been done to erase the cast iron rails to grave at rear and also to top right hand of head stone. September date would fit as grass has regrown after been cut. Haycock behind Buckley headstone.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia it does lack broadness as you say!
sharon.corbet
Here are the Morans in 1901 and 1911 at which point Kate Moran was 48 and 55 respectively. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Your census link doesn't seem to be working. I'd be inclined to think a lot of it depended on who was doing the reporting to the officials, and how well informed they were. It's quite possible that the person concerned knew how old they were, but that the husband, or daughter in this case was a bit fuzzier.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Link fixed
derangedlemur
It's an odd thing to take a picture of.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Where's
WallyKate? - plotview - goo.gl/maps/637iU1XGK94VQGRB9Niall McAuley
The 3 sons in the record of deaths If I read that correctly, John died in the workhouse, and the other two from heart attacks at home.
Niall McAuley
You wouldn't know from the gravestone, but Timothy was married to a Mary
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/8468254@N02 Not that odd. Family may have wanted to send photo to relations who had emigrated to America or Australia.
Niall McAuley
Here they are in 1911 (Tim & Mary)
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Flickr is sometimes as cold as the grave. Ballygunner in winter 2010 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/kingloser/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/kingloser/5216121369/
DannyM8
First Saturday, hum, still no Dog 🐕
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
And while we are at Ballygunner, Mr Widger needs some tlc ... https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/5727931028/
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/187095410@N06 Later additions to the gravestone included a daughter, Rosie O'Gorman who died in Boston in 1925, so it's not unlikely that it was sent to her in 1921.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet That would explain the commission. It would also indicate that Rosie died at a relatively young age say early to mid 40s.
O Mac
We tend to see these immortelles as faded plastic flowers under a perspex dome but back then the globe would have been of glass with natural dried flowers or flowers would have been made from artificial materials such as china or painted plaster of Paris.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia https://www.flickr.com/photos/187095410@N06 https://www.flickr.com/photos/8468254@N02 https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/91549360@N03 https://www.flickr.com/photos/79549245@N06 Thank you for participating in our first ever weekend posting. Miss Mary Louise O'Leary NLI
Niall McAuley
It's the weekend???
O Mac
National Library of Ireland on The Commons Sunday Miscellany comes first. ok! You can't just barge into a Sunday morning ye know.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/91549360@N03 :-)
Architecture of Dublin
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] not so the case in Ireland regarding avenues. Often you will have streets in towns that have the same names and road, lane, avenue or hill are used to distinguish between them. e,g. a town near the sea might have harbour lane, harbour road and harbour avenue etc. This is compounded by the changing of some British imposed names back to Irish or neutral names and they didn't have time to come up with new ones. There is a famous example in the north inner city of Dublin where you will find streets by the name of 1st avenue, 2nd avenue, 3rd avenue and 4th avenue beside each other. These are all small terraces of council house cottages just off of Sheriff Street in Dublin 1 and by no means avenues. goo.gl/maps/JWpGzLA45arJijhm6 -Third Avenue, Dublin 1
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
https://www.flickr.com/photos/186395973@N06 Thank you!
Niall McAuley
Roads named Something Lane became unfashionable at some point and some were renamed Avenue, Blackhorse Lane for example.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/91549360@N03 Proper order and we also have Sunday Miscellany on Saturday evening now.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/186395973@N06 Likewise in Aberyswyth you have First Ave to Fifth Ave in Penparcu Estate built by the council in the 1920s.
Domhnallcos
I'm afraid the Irish have little regard for avenues - compare clonliffe road to the miniscule parallel clonliffe avenue, which fails the dictionary definition 'a broad road in a town or city, typically having trees at regular intervals along its sides' by a country 1.6 km!
Niall McAuley
Here is the record of the wedding of James Moran, Mason, to Catherine Moloney in 1874. It says she was 20, so born in 1853 or 1854. This matches 65 better than 60 for age at her death.
Niall McAuley
It also means she was 37 years married in 1911, not 32 as in census.