Kate Moran R.I.P.

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Where: Munster, Waterford, Ireland

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When: 05 September 1921

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Welcome to the first (and only) weekend edition on this stream. We are delighted to present this Poole photograph for your comment. Our catalogue entry reads “Tombstone of Kate Moran who died July 1st 1920, commissioned by Mrs. Noran, Johns Avenue, Waterford”. I would guess that Mrs Noran should be Mrs Moran? I’m confused already. Over to you.

+++ UPDATE +++
We found out that this photograph was taken in St. Mary’s graveyard in Ballygunner, Waterford. Kate, or Catherine Moran, died on 1 July 1920, at age 60 rather than 65 as it says on this gravestone. Or did she? This is another fine example of fuzzy ages on official documentation, as Kate Moran was recorded as 48 in the 1901 census, but 55 in 1911. She was recorded as 20 when she married mason James Moran in 1874, which implies she was indeed 65 when she died, but this also means that Kate was married to James for 37 years in 1911, not 32 years as it says in the 1911 census.

Photographer: A. H. Poole

Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford

Date: ca. 5 September 1921

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2948

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 9582
ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland katemoran jamesmoran moran headstone tombstone 1920 johnsavenue waterford munster ireland noran graveyard stmarysgraveyard ballygunner buckley annebuckley johnbuckley timothybuckley michaelbuckley photoshopping firstweekend gaffneysculptor poolephotographiccollection

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  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 07:43:49

    I am thinking that the headstone on the left might draw the most comments? Let the weekend games begin.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 23/May/2020 07:45:30

    Further confusion - according to the death record for Catherine Moran, she was 60 when she died rather than 65.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 07:47:38

    5 September 1921 was a Monday ... 1 July 1920 was a Thursday ...

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 23/May/2020 07:53:47

    It's in St. Mary's graveyard in Ballygunner. (Graves 441 and 334.)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 07:55:27

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yes, I bet there is a dreadful story to the Buckleys on the left. Imagine having three sons die before you.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:02:37

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Very strannge indeed, I can understand a year or maybe 2 but 5 years difference!

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:03:45

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia very difficult on poor Mrs Buckley, I wonder how big was her family?

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 08:13:11

    "Avenue: a broad road in a town or city, typically having trees at regular intervals along its sides." John's Avenue, Waterford lacks broadness and a few trees. No.8 is/was (rebuilt?) on the right opposite the blue house. Streeview - goo.gl/maps/TBbvH9t44ZPKJjZXA

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    sharon.corbet

    • 23/May/2020 08:15:44

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] Here is Anne Buckley in 1911. At that point, only 3 of her 6 children were living, and from the gravestone inscription, another 2 died in the following year.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:23:01

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I see she is 55 in 1911 census and on the 1901 she is 48? James is 54 and 47? Did people generally not know their exact ages?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:25:57

    Here is Mary Margaret Sage in the 1911 census living in Railway Square, [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] it ties in exactly with your death certificate.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 23/May/2020 08:29:13

    A bit of editing has been done to erase the cast iron rails to grave at rear and also to top right hand of head stone. September date would fit as grass has regrown after been cut. Haycock behind Buckley headstone.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:29:40

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia it does lack broadness as you say!

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 23/May/2020 08:35:40

    Here are the Morans in 1901 and 1911 at which point Kate Moran was 48 and 55 respectively. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Your census link doesn't seem to be working. I'd be inclined to think a lot of it depended on who was doing the reporting to the officials, and how well informed they were. It's quite possible that the person concerned knew how old they were, but that the husband, or daughter in this case was a bit fuzzier.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 08:39:20

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Link fixed

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 23/May/2020 09:01:50

    It's an odd thing to take a picture of.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 09:26:36

    Where's Wally Kate? - plotview - goo.gl/maps/637iU1XGK94VQGRB9

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 23/May/2020 09:29:36

    The 3 sons in the record of deaths If I read that correctly, John died in the workhouse, and the other two from heart attacks at home.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 23/May/2020 09:38:42

    You wouldn't know from the gravestone, but Timothy was married to a Mary

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 23/May/2020 09:39:32

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Not that odd. Family may have wanted to send photo to relations who had emigrated to America or Australia.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 23/May/2020 09:41:45

    Here they are in 1911 (Tim & Mary)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 09:50:17

    Flickr is sometimes as cold as the grave. Ballygunner in winter 2010 via https://www.flickr.com/photos/kingloser/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/kingloser/5216121369/

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 23/May/2020 09:58:19

    First Saturday, hum, still no Dog 🐕

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 23/May/2020 10:00:59

    And while we are at Ballygunner, Mr Widger needs some tlc ... https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/5727931028/

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 23/May/2020 10:00:59

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Later additions to the gravestone included a daughter, Rosie O'Gorman who died in Boston in 1925, so it's not unlikely that it was sent to her in 1921.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 23/May/2020 10:27:39

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet That would explain the commission. It would also indicate that Rosie died at a relatively young age say early to mid 40s.

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 23/May/2020 12:39:46

    We tend to see these immortelles as faded plastic flowers under a perspex dome but back then the globe would have been of glass with natural dried flowers or flowers would have been made from artificial materials such as china or painted plaster of Paris.

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  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 23/May/2020 20:11:03

    It's the weekend???

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 23/May/2020 20:21:32

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons Sunday Miscellany comes first. ok! You can't just barge into a Sunday morning ye know.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/May/2020 21:56:15

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] :-)

  • profile

    rpgvlwqt88

    • 23/May/2020 23:45:40

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] not so the case in Ireland regarding avenues. Often you will have streets in towns that have the same names and road, lane, avenue or hill are used to distinguish between them. e,g. a town near the sea might have harbour lane, harbour road and harbour avenue etc. This is compounded by the changing of some British imposed names back to Irish or neutral names and they didn't have time to come up with new ones. There is a famous example in the north inner city of Dublin where you will find streets by the name of 1st avenue, 2nd avenue, 3rd avenue and 4th avenue beside each other. These are all small terraces of council house cottages just off of Sheriff Street in Dublin 1 and by no means avenues. goo.gl/maps/JWpGzLA45arJijhm6 -Third Avenue, Dublin 1

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 24/May/2020 04:27:04

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thank you!

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 24/May/2020 06:21:46

    Roads named Something Lane became unfashionable at some point and some were renamed Avenue, Blackhorse Lane for example.

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    cargeofg

    • 24/May/2020 09:27:46

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Proper order and we also have Sunday Miscellany on Saturday evening now.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 24/May/2020 09:37:40

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Likewise in Aberyswyth you have First Ave to Fifth Ave in Penparcu Estate built by the council in the 1920s.

  • profile

    Domhnallcos

    • 25/May/2020 14:49:16

    I'm afraid the Irish have little regard for avenues - compare clonliffe road to the miniscule parallel clonliffe avenue, which fails the dictionary definition 'a broad road in a town or city, typically having trees at regular intervals along its sides' by a country 1.6 km!

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 29/May/2020 08:04:37

    Here is the record of the wedding of James Moran, Mason, to Catherine Moloney in 1874. It says she was 20, so born in 1853 or 1854. This matches 65 better than 60 for age at her death.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 29/May/2020 08:11:12

    It also means she was 37 years married in 1911, not 32 as in census.