White's house not the White House.
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Where: Munster, Waterford, Ireland
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When: Unknown
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Another Poole image for today and a house apparently owned by the White family. A good solid house with an extension to the side. I love the way the conservatory has been incorporated into the building and hopefully it is able to maximise the exposure to the sun/
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: between ca. 1901 and 1954
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 0163
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 39842
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: between ca. 1901 and 1954
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 0163
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 39842
ahpoole
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ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Don't call me "SHIRLEY" ... !!
Foxglove
let's be Frank, I am having my usual challenges with this one
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Still there! Hooray!! goo.gl/maps/fmB1oWgu5hEdGTQE8
Carol Maddock
Would this be Vincent White's? Sinn Féin lord mayor, etc.? https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6940590561/
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] His family were living in Alexandra Place: https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/23877070966
sharon.corbet
NIAH page on the house.
Foxglove
the photo of the mayor was a 29 February special this year !
cargeofg
Shirly Lower Branch Rd Photo taken from field between road and railway line. House to left is called Easton.
cargeofg
bit.ly/3dphFvh Link to OSI 25" map Seems to have "lost" a lot of chimney pots in this view but reappear in NIAH
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
The house next door on the right, "Belvedere" has a two-storey addition in the same style. That must have been done soon-ish after this photo, or it would have been in a noticeably different style. Unhappily the NIAH has nothing about the extension (which means you can't see the join!) - www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/22816...
Niall McAuley
the census has a Terminal Road in Tramore in 1911, with Joseph and Johanna White in residence with their family, including young Vincent, then a medical student.
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley They're the family in Alexandra Place, but they may have moved down the road. or one of the brothers moved into Shirley.
Bernard Healy
Okay - a tentative suggestion which someone else is going to have to follow up on because I really should be doing other research today! Can't find Lower Branch Road, Tramore, in the Census, but I have found a Dr White and family of Terminus Road. www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Tramo... Could it be that Terminus Road is an older name for Lower Branch Road? And is this the house? Having a look at the "House and Building" return, I see that Dr White's house had FIVE windows on the front. So, might it be that the extension (and therefore this photo) is post-1911 and that the original form of the house had 5 front windows? Or am I looking at the wrong house altogether? I'll leave that as an exercise for someone with more time. Note the son - then a medical student - who is our Dr White of above! Dr Joseph White's death cert: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/death...
Carol Maddock
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Bernard, I'm shocked at you putting your actual own research/job before your eccer here! You are dead to me... :)
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] You can't have a good whodunnit story without the scene where the former detective has to be pried away from other business in order to tackle an interesting case.
sharon.corbet
This is Alexandra Place which is located here. According to the obituary of Mrs. Joanna White that was found by [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] she was still living there at her death in 1936. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/2072[email protected]/23916563545/]
Niall McAuley
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ well remembered! If one of the younger Whites has this house, we are well after 1911, probably after 1920
Bernard Healy
Have a look at this: catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000593877 The house next door to White's is Belvedere. Poole was commissioned by Mr. Richard Power, Belvedere, Tramore to take this family group in 1925, per the catalogue.
abandoned railways
Picture taken from the railway line, which closed in 1960. edit. I think the goods gate was closed and the wall built in the line upgrade in 1897.
sharon.corbet
There's an ad in the Waterford Standard from 26 October 1907 where a George E. White of King Street, Waterford is offering Shirley, Tramore for let for the winter months. (25s per week)
sharon.corbet
In September 1910, George White is looking to sell the lease of the house with 47 years left to run.
Bernard Healy
Okay - so that makes my previous identification much more doubtful. The problem is that Lower Branch Road does not seem to appear on the census.
sharon.corbet
The White connection with the house dated at least from 1897 when an S. White of Shirley, Tramore ordered a cabinet from Poole.
cargeofg
catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000590098 SHIRLEY and EASTON in view to the right. Gate to level crossing in view and rail line.
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I've a feeling that it may be one of the unoccupied houses on Terminus Road in the 1911 census.
Bernard Healy
Okay - Another tenative proposal - we have a Poole photo commissioned by Miss Jacob, of Easton, Tramore. catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000711408 The 1901 Census gives us a Miss Jacob living in a house with 9 windows on the front living on Lower Waterford Road. (Is this Lower Branch Road?) I think Easton has 9 windows - 8 visible in the view of Tramore and a 9th one over the front door. Next to Miss Jacob we have a Mr George Edwin White living in a house with 4 windows in front. Is that how Shirley was originally built? www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Tramo... Note that we seem to have a cluster of Quakers living in a few homes on this row.
Niall McAuley
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ There is a Friends Meeting House nearby on Upper Branch Road.
Bernard Healy
Now, looking at the 1911 Cenus www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003960610/ we see that Miss Maryanne Jacob's neighbour now one Richard Talbot and he can claim 8 windows. If we count the conservatory as one window, that's what we have in the photo. So this MIGHT be what happened. George E White is living there in 1901. He has 4 windows. After 1901 he builds the extension, brings us up to 8 windows. He moves to Waterford and wants to sell the lease. (Is that why he had it photographed???) He advertises this in 1910 per Sharon. In 1911, we have a Mr Talbot living there. www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Tramo... He is an unemployed racing official!!! Note - this gives us reason to suspect a dating of the house between 1901-1911, but that's VERY CIRCUMSTANTIAL.
Niall McAuley
I don't see George or Isabel in either the 1911 census or the death records, so I think they moved further than Waterford
Bernard Healy
1900: Marriage of Richard Nihill Talbot & Lillian Dunne: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marri... Death of Richard Talbot (Race Handicapper) in Rathmines, 1917: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/death... Birth of Lilian Talbot in Holles Street, 1902: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth... Note that Richard is then a 'Gentleman Farmer' at Grennan House in Co. Laois (Queen's Co) Birth of Kathleen Talbot, Tramore, 1905: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth... There's probably more out there to be found, but this time I _do_ need to get back to work. See this: laoishouses.wordpress.com/2019/01/06/grennan-the-oldest-i... with a reference to the Talbots at the very bottom of the page.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley They're in a boarding house in Falmouth in 1911.
Niall McAuley
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ the 1901 census above says Isabel was born in England, and I don't see a marriage record, so probably married in England too.
an poc
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Philip R. Jacob's memoir 'A Jacob Family: Tramore in the 1900s' (2008) might shed some more light on the matter. Perhaps someone out there has a copy they could consult.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Of course we have a copy, but it is all locked up at the moment. How about we have it ready for you to do the research yourself in the reading room at Library Towers on the first day we reopen? We can have a cuppa and gossip about everyone else who frequents the stream! Regards, Mary
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland There is an ex library copy at 83p Stg listed as used /marks etc on Abe books next one is £13.40 Stg but is in Kilkenny. Not wishing to spoil your day out in The Library or upset the Marys especially if you are getting tea made for you as well.
gtsoygqo89
I'm not sure if that house was the White residence of Johanna White, mentioned in the obituary above, who is my wife's great grandmother. We have visited Tramore a couple of times in recent years to visit the old house, which was Alexander Place, or 'Ally Pally' as the family called it. My wife was there as a child, but remembered little of it. The picture posted by Sharon Corbet is the White family in the garden of Ally Pally at the wedding of George Steele Ross and Elizabeth White, my wife's grandparents, with Vincent White, later Mayor of Waterford in the wedding group. There was no George White living in this house. The house in the picture may have been owned by another White family, of which there were a few in the area. Looking at the picture of that house, and OS maps and other published pictures of Tramore, that house, if it was the railway behind it looks to be Marine Terrace or similar which backed on to the railway terminus. Bernard Healy is quite correct in that the house was part of Terminus Road in 1901 and 1911. My wife's White family were at Ally Pally in the 1901 and 1911 census. Ally Pally, which was on Turkey Road and further away from the railway became part of and still is part of O'Shea's hotel, and Nora very kindly let us stay in one of the bedrooms that formed part of the original house, so it was a very special occasion. Happy to discuss further :) John
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] George, its not a private invitation, sure anyone can come, we have lots of tea. Mary
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Hello John, very interesting indeed. I will include some of the people who commented today, which will help them notice your post. Please do discuss further. https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Regards, Mary
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland As a recent newcomer to this stream it never ceases to amaze me that somewhere out in Flickrland you connect with someone who can give a firsthand family input. We have it today and in recent post with links back to James Penrose. Keep up the good work and also the other people who comment and input here. Any particular biscuits you like at Library towers or do I go for default option of cream buns to go with the cuppa. Or I could bring Welsh cakes.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] We are very lucky with our followers and we have made numerous connections over the years, it is worth reading some of the earlier episodes, may I suggest the following album, the stories about the photos made a very successful exhibition. http://www.flickr.com/photos/example/sets/72157686179125750/ Cacen Gymraeg, byddai hynny'n braf iawn yn wir! Mary
an poc
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland What a lovely idea Mary! Thank you for the invitation, I shall look forward to it!
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I'm fairly sure that they were a different White family. (Though they were living basically down the road from your wife's family.) The George White that [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] found in the census is a Quaker, rather than being Catholic, for example. Though it is possible that there is some type of link! I think you already commented on the photo I linked to up above, including some a later photo of the Ross family which was lovely to see. From what I can tell, George White was the owner of George White and Sons a chemist's on King Street in Waterford city. I'm not sure if he was living in Tramore all year round though - at least by 1907 they were looking for someone to rent the house in the winter. Still they would have probably been quite familiar with your wife's family.
Niall McAuley
sharon.corbet can you see the full 1911 record with # of children? I have come across a database of trade directories at waterfordlibraries suggesting that a George White was a druggist/chandler/etc from 1846 in Thomas st, and then George White and Sons in 1881, so I am thinking this George was one of the Sons of the business title
Niall McAuley
Hmm, hard to tell. 1909-10 Thoms seems to have 2 Waterford businesses called George White and Sons, oil and colour merchants, (our George's trade in 1901 census), one at Thomas St (quay) and one O'Connell St/Bridge St, the renamed King St? Can't link results directly, at least not on my phone...
Bernard Healy
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/] See the article on p107ff for info on the Whites & some of their business activities: snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ejournals/119482/119482...
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] The English version of the 1911 census is a bit squishier compared to the Irish one, but I think it says no children. George White is a “druggist” and claims to be an “employer” in it too. (Employs more than just servants). I’ve also tentatively identified a marriage record, which would seem to indicate that “our” George White’s father was also a George. The Waterford Chamber of Commerce has a photo from 1930 which includes “Mr. L. H. Grubb, Chamber Secretary, and Director, George White and Son, Chemists, and framing and building suppliers, O’Connell St.;" There’s also a will of a George Edwin White from 1917, who left his property to William White, Robert White and L.H. Grubb. Finally, a Munster People article from 2018 about the closure of Grubbs talks about its predecessor George White’s which "even supplied the shipping industry in Waterford, from sail materials to ropes but was a general hard ware store. The business started in 1776 and was a Quaker family that started it."
gtsoygqo89
Sharon Corbet interesting that George White was a chemist. The White family from Alexandra Place were also chemists, and had an apothecary in Broad Street Waterford for many years. Other occupations of members of the family were surgeon, doctors and a vet. I think one of the daughters also worked as an assistant in the surgery. I am sure 'your' George must be related to 'our' White but haven't made the connection yet.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Evening Mary here (I'm doing overtime this morning). https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] There’s always an open invitation to any of our Flickroonies to visit Library Towers, but I think Afternoon Mary jumped the gun a bit inviting you along for the day that we open! That’s so typical of her, because she just sits in the parlour smoothing down the antimacassars, while I have to do the tea and cakes!
sharon.corbet
I actually have a sneaking suspicion that L.H. Grubb is George White's nephew and brother to the Miss Grubb getting married in this photo. (Leopold Henry Grubb in that case.)
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet That would be a coincidence, always presuming you are correct!
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley I wonder if this White family were related to Timothy White in England who incorporated in 1904 as Timothy White Ltd and later merged with Taylors Drug Co and were then bought out in 1966 by Boots the Chemist now just called Boots.
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] I think I am - here's the wedding cert for Lucy Elizabeth White of King St., Waterford marrying Joseph Henry Grubb of Bruce Villa, Clonmel. Lucy's father is an Oil and Colour Merchant. Leopold Henry Grubb is back in Clonmel with his parents in 1911, but his wife and most of his kids are in Waterford. He is described in the census as a "pharmaceutical chemist".
Niall McAuley
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ so Lucy Elizabeth was George Edwin' s sister.
sharon.corbet
Oh, and in 1901, although LH is in Daisey Terrace, he accidentally got added in his uncle William White's census return.
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Yes, I think the White family consisted at least of George Edwin, Lucy Elizabeth, William, Emily, Sarah Harris, Mary Robinson and Robert Eaton. When George Edwin died, he left his estate to his brothers, and his nephew. All three of them seem to be involved in the pharmaceutical / oils and colours business.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet No surprise to me Sharon, I always presume you are correct! I know you linked to the wedding photo, I will include it here again to make it easier for the casual viewer. Mary https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/30532356198/
gtsoygqo89
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] interesting thought. No Timothy White in 'our' White family. Looking at Wiki, it looks like Timothy White was English and lived in Portsmouth.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Just though it may be a connection as had also looked at Wiki entry and saw listed as ships chandlers as well as chemists.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Grubb marrying White sounds like a perfect plot for a Soap Opera.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Grub did feature in the Trumpton Roll call of firemen.
cargeofg
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Good afternoon evening Mary. I though she had eaten the antimacassars as a forfeit on a wager. Tell her to put another sod of turf in the range to warm up the hot plate for the Piciau ar y maen.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] :-)
suckindeesel
House is now called 'Clonlara' www.propertypartners.ie/residential/brochure/clonlara-low... The house on left, called Easton, which is strangely obscured in streetview, appears to be occupied by the OFFSHORE LEAKS DATABASE operated by The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists offshoreleaks.icij.org/tips/new
Sailpix IRL
Another view – this one by Robert French/Lawrence Collection: catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000318053
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Good find! Poor Shirley is looking very unkempt and overgrown. And the two-storey extension to Belvedere is not yet built. From 'Similar Items' it seems Mr French/Lawrence did a series in Tramore just before WW1, looking at the ladies' frocks. Including this one with a convenient newspaper advert about a "girl log cabin" with a 1913 (??) date - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000316096 The point being that Mr Poole's photo is well before Mr French's due to all that vegetation ...
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ I see your point, but vegetation can be cut back. I think the seeming absence of the lamppost in Poole is a stronger clue.
Sailpix IRL
Screenshot OSI Historic 25" map showing properties 'Easton', Shirley', and 'Belvedere' at Lower Branch Road, Tramore, Co. Waterford. 'Level Crossing' and (railway) 'Station' (Tramore – Waterford city line) also shown. flic.kr/p/2iZvm75 OSI (Ordnance Survey Ireland) Historic 25” map: 1888–1913.
Dr. Ilia
fantastic shot