Lean, mean and bowler hatted

Download this image

More from this collection

Related by Where

Research Help!

Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 16 March 1921

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
This fine group of sportsmen taken by Mr. Poole is a bit of a puzzle. If they were oarsmen, there would surely be an oar or two on display. Fooballers would have a ball or two to play with. Hurlers would have hurleys, but these lads have what looks like a telescope? Who were they? What was their sport, and what are those devices the two in the front rank are holding?

+++ UPDATE +++
Well, safe to say that everybody had a good time yesterday with this one! The spikes on the shoes certainly prove running/athletics. But were these chaps fire brigade men? Are those implements fire hose nozzles? Can't see this one being left to lie fallow, so bated breath here at Library Towers for a definite solution!

Photographer: A. H. Poole

Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford

Date: Circa 16th March 1921

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2900

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 12567
ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland sportsmen shed men telescope poolephotographiccollection

Add Tags
  • profile

    IntrepidExplorer82

    • 30/Apr/2020 07:52:58

    They appear to be wearing running spikes, so I’d suggest they’re track athletes . The items they are holding look like ceremonial torches. Was there a 1921 athletics event they were representing their Country or County at?

  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 30/Apr/2020 08:17:12

    I’ve found a Mooncoin Howley involved with Coursing Clubs in 1921, but I think that’s a red herring.

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 30/Apr/2020 08:33:30

    The device in the right looks like a leather case for the device in the left.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 08:59:35

    Orange Order Harriers, by the look of them. They have hunting horns (and bowlers).

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:01:08

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I would agree with that neat line of stitching and that looks like a clip at the top. Gent with bow tie has some thing on his lapel. Photo date says circa 16th March could it be taken on the 17th and that is a sprig of shamrock.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:08:03

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] If the shirts were orange would that explain the strobing effect on them.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:18:55

    There are 11 of them. A suspiciously team-like number. Edit: Missed the chap back left. So actually there's 12. 11 and a sub.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:25:04

    A bit of faffing around with the histogram shows that there's a big hedge between those doors.

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:33:56

    The spikes on those shoes look lethal. Whatever the lads did envolved running on grass.

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:40:13

    St Patrick's Day 1921 was a muted affair in Waterford city. By order of the British military authorities, the usual public gatherings were cancelled, with the exception of an Ancient Order of Hibernians concert in the Theatre Royal, and 'cinematographic entertainments' at Broad Street cinema and the Coliseum on Adelphi Quay (Munster Express, 19 March 1921, 5). Of course, that said, the photo may not have been taken in Waterford and it may not have been a public event.

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 09:50:08

    The "telescopes" could be team relay batons, though they appear larger than one would expect (or be willing or able to drag along a track). the shed appears to have pegged up clothes so it could be the club house.

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:01:41

    oh, reference to "strobbing", the material could be silk

  • profile

    abandoned railways

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:04:10

    Mark McDonald (9 August 1888 - 16 February 1952) was an Irish hurler. After being selected for the Kilkenny senior team in 1921, he held his position on the team for the following four championship seasons. He won his first Leinster medal in 1922 before later winning his sole All-Ireland medal after Kilkenny's defeat of Tipperary in the final. McDonald won a second Leinster medal in 1923. McDonald was married to Esther (née Howley) and had seven children. He died after a short period of ill health on 16 February 1952. - Mooncoin history page

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:07:11

    I may be wrong but the clothes and moustaches look more 1911 to me than 1921. According to the catalogue the photo is a copy, so perhaps the original was taken some years earlier?

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:09:47

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove The shed is either fake or it's got a hedge in it.

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:11:59

    I've found one family of Howleys in Mooncoin in the 1911 census. There were seven children, including four daughters: Mary (14), Kattie (13), Alice (11) and Margaret (4)

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:18:18

    Kate Howley married William Keane of Piltown in 1916 so she wouldn't be the Miss Howley. In 1911 the children's great-aunt Miss Mary Howley (68) was living with them, so it could be her also. Edit: the latter died in 1918 so I can't have been her

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:42:31

    There are several newspaper reports of cross country races in Ireland in March 1921, but they are nearly all in Dublin and Belfast. However, the Southern Championships of the ICC Association were held at Ballydoyle racecourse on 27th February 1921. Each team counted their first 6 runners to finish (add up the positions and the lowest number wins). So this could be two teams (each with its own baton thingy?, or trophy?). Donore and Clonliffe both had 'A' and 'B' teams. The other teams were Dublin University and Castlevilla. Edit: Ignore the above. The venue was Baldoyle not Ballydoyle.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:50:26

    There's something very odd about the appearance of the white singlets. It almost looks like their shape was rather crudely added in the darkroom. Otherwise they might have appeared bare chested, and that wouldn't do at all.

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 10:58:46

    The most recent photo in my stream gives a hint to the "telescopes" the men are holding. yes the shirts do look odd, at first I offered "silk" as an option but I doubt that now

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 11:10:49

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Likewise the shirt of the man standing third from right. I've noticed it in other Poole photos also https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 11:39:28

    yes also man second from right (painted on shirt) and smaller man on 4th left with flat hat and cocked head, also a photoshopped ("painted/ burned) item. oh god the past is like the "Matrix" - history was created in a darkroom

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:04:27

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] There are shirts there right enough, but they're all over-exposed or something so as you say, someone has touched them up (badly) to add some semblance of respectability.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:05:06

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove Photo taken between end of fence and a shed. Had a look at "Photoshopped" shirts. The chap in the very back row third from left has a light coloured tie and has shadows by collar but if you look at gent (moustache) third in from right his shirt is very washed out and no shadows but overlap of collar to tie looks same. Would they have copied the back row shirt and tie on to him and added more tie length? As you say flat cap lad with walking stick/baton burned on gaps look odd at belt and lower jacket

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:06:24

    What's weirder than the shirts is the far left lad's shorts.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:08:51

    What sort of sporting organisation needs a committee of seven blokes in bowler hats and one in a flat cap, though? That's the real question.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:21:03

    Apparently there were two Orange Lodges in Waterford, but they were a bit rubbish.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:31:29

    Is the 'baton' some sort of trumpet? Mouthpiece on right and horn on left?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:52:17

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I would have to agree that it was not one of the Poole organisations finest hours!

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 30/Apr/2020 12:57:05

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove Forgive me, but could you spell out more clearly what you think it is?

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:05:09

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] That would have been my guess. Image searches of straight hunting horn don't throw up any exact matches but a couple of vaguely similar things. It is quite massive at the mouthpiece end for a horn though. Edit: In the megazoom you can see that it's tapered in the middle, so it's not a horn. Ceremonial torch seems the most likely, I think.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:06:39

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy An 18 inch naval cannon, judging by the photostream.

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:12:19

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Is the gun really small, or are the sailors really big? :D

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:16:26

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Ah, well; when a fellah says it's 18 inches...

  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:22:51

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] You said it, Lemur! It's very obvious that https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia/ hasn't called around yet today – no bawdy note on the photo where the curly-headed chap is holding his “ceremonial torch"...

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:23:55

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] If you think that is a "gun" I would not like to be near it when they fire it because it has a dent in the "barrel"

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:26:01

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I don't think that matters with blunderbusses. Or are you also being crudely allegorical in some manner?

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:30:33

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Afternoon Carol Had a couple of emails from Barbara explained my mistake re email address.

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:40:24

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Condition of the bore of all firearms is important. It is a matter of ballistics be it lead shot or single ball (musket or canon) And neither of these comments are meant to be crude. Just speaking with my engineers head on.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:40:43

    It looks like some of them are hurlers: catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000593020

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 30/Apr/2020 13:52:47

    Maybe someone with better face recognition skills can see if there's any overlap with the 1913 Mooncoin Hurling Team. Won the All-Ireland that year. www.gaa.ie/centenary/all-ireland-winners/1913-gaa-hurling...

  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 30/Apr/2020 14:11:05

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Not a problem at all, at all, George. Barbara didn't mind in the slightest.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 30/Apr/2020 14:12:50

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I reckon moustache-man (front 2nd left in your photo, back left in mine) is back left in the above picture.

  • profile
  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 30/Apr/2020 15:32:30

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Sure this is Library Towers ‘work’ for me! ;)

  • profile

    KestrelSprite

    • 30/Apr/2020 15:47:56

    I don’t think the white tops have been “photoshopped” - they are much too detailed. The gadget that the seated guy front row second left looks like the business end of a fire hose.

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 30/Apr/2020 16:18:04

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Darkroom tricks are as old as photography itself. See www.pocket-lint.com/apps/news/adobe/140252-30-famous-phot...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 30/Apr/2020 17:02:07

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/kestrelsprite https://www.flickr.com/photos/184[email protected] We have seen photoshopping many times in the past, have a look at the waist area in this photo. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/33810530966 Or the W in Waterford in this one. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7141494779

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 17:29:23

    I followed Peter Cartwright advice, I googled early 20th century firehouse and guess what those young men have between their legs !! yes it's a big nozzle ! so it could be a team of firemen ( as they were once called)

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 30/Apr/2020 17:30:14

    fire hose not firehouse, bloody predictotxt

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 30/Apr/2020 17:36:21

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/abandonedrailsireland] I think the Mark McDonald link to both Mooncoin and the Howleys could have been explored further, we seem to have been diverted by guns etc today. He played in the Mooncoin team who were the Kilkenny Senior Hurling Championships in 1908. He's 6th from left, middle row. www.gaa.ie/centenary/all-ireland-winners/1922-gaa-hurling...

  • profile

    cargeofg

    • 30/Apr/2020 18:23:31

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Don't blame me for diverting the thread down the gun line(game shooting term)https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] is as much to blame she was off on a fishing expedition with her red herrings.

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 19:13:38

    This (from the Waterford Standard, 12 Sept 1903, 3) is probably unrelated, but you never know... 'Amongst the entries for the Fire Brigade Competition at the Cork Exhibition is that of the Passage West Brigade. This is the only unpaid brigade in the County Cork, and it stands unique amongst the brigades of Ireland, as the members themselves, who are fishermen, constructed their own fire escapes and hose reels, and do not get any support from the rates. As all the brigades who have entered for the competition are paid professional firemen, it must be considered very plucky of the Passage West Fire Brigade to challenge them. Amongst the other entrants is the recently formed Fire Brigade of the City of Waterford, and we are sure that although but a short time in existence, the members will render a good account of themselves.'

  • profile

    an poc

    • 30/Apr/2020 19:45:06

    According to the Cork Examiner, 14 Sept 1903, 7, only three fire brigades 'arrived in full force', and Waterford wasn't one of them. Also, they seem to have competed attired in their full uniforms, and there's no mention of an athletics component. Unless this photo shows the Waterford Fire Brigade training in advance of the competition? I'm probably barking up the wrong tree

  • profile

    suckindeesel

    • 30/Apr/2020 22:28:21

    Quarantine Eavan Boland - 1944-2020 In the worst hour of the worst season of the worst year of a whole people a man set out from the workhouse with his wife. He was walking—they were both walking—north. She was sick with famine fever and could not keep up. He lifted her and put her on his back. He walked like that west and west and north. Until at nightfall under freezing stars they arrived. In the morning they were both found dead. Of cold. Of hunger. Of the toxins of a whole history. But her feet were held against his breastbone. The last heat of his flesh was his last gift to her. Let no love poem ever come to this threshold. There is no place here for the inexact praise of the easy graces and sensuality of the body. There is only time for this merciless inventory: Their death together in the winter of 1847. Also what they suffered. How they lived. And what there is between a man and woman. And in which darkness it can best be proved. In honour of Poetry Day and Eavan Boland who passed a few days ago

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 01/May/2020 02:29:23

    baton? like in the 4x100m sprint relay, one runs with the baton, then gives it to the next fellow? And they have spikes/cleats on their shoes as noted, it must be a race of some sort

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 01/May/2020 02:37:37

    do we know anything about the Mr. and Miss Howley that commissioned this series of photos?

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 01/May/2020 06:15:48

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove Why would you have a leather case for a firehose nozzle?

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 01/May/2020 06:39:19

    In a similar 1910 shot of harriers POOLEWP 2011, we see vests, shorts and spikes on the runners, suits on the rest, but the runners have medals and the trophies they've won. I think the nozzle must be the prize in an inter fire brigade race.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 01/May/2020 07:25:54

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Thank you for that poem by Eavan Boland. It is always good to remember and especially such a wonderful poet and a true warrior for her causes.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/May/2020 07:36:07

    If we can accept a 1921/1912 transposition, Wexford sent a team of 9 to the national cross country championships north of Dublin in March 1912, but twelve runners were selected to take part in a trial at Enniscorthy (closer to home for AHP) a couple of weeks before from reports in the New Ross Standard. Just sayin'. (without any explanation for the batons/guns/nozzles/torches)

  • profile

    Dr. Ilia

    • 01/May/2020 08:00:08

    Very nice shot !

  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 01/May/2020 08:28:06

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/foxglove Still sniggering about "big nozzle". If that’s what you kids are calling it these days... :D

  • profile

    joe_dwyer6

    • 04/May/2020 15:53:10

    the Passage West fire brigade mentioned above was founded and run by a Captain Roberts who was a descendant of the Roberts who commanded the "Sirius" on her transatlantic voyage!

  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 09/Jun/2020 09:04:56

    Carol ..... snigger a bit louder; more men with "big nozzels" www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49987340907/in/feed