Top Hats, Trilbys and Bowlers

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A fine image from the Poole Collection of a wedding group commissioned by Mr. Cornelius Phelan, Kilganey House, Clonmel! The ladies in their finery including necklaces, fur stoles and hats are matched by the gentlemen, both reverend and lay, with top hats, trilbys and bowler hats. While most of the apparel appear to be rather somber, the young lady gives a splash of light and colour to the group!

While -unusually- we have not yet established the details of the wedding party, ofarrl suggests a location: the garden alongside the Grand Hotel in Tramore. This is corroborated by other contributors, the StreetView, and the front-doors in the background....

After some long and detailed co-operation between sharon.corbet and Bernard Healy we are delighted with the following summary of their work. Thanks again

This photo was taken and the wedding itself was in Tramore, backed up by Paul O'Farrell's identification of the location, and the presence of the priests from Tramore. (Thomas O'Brien, Nicholas Walsh)
- Cornelius Phelan married Bridget Walsh, the niece of Canon Nicholas Walsh, parish priest of Tramore at the time, sometime before 1923, but after 1911, but there is no record of this available
- There are no other Phelan marriages that would be suitable
- The civil records site doesn't appear to have *any* weddings in Tramore between 20th Feb and 28th Feb 1922

I think that we are more or less convinced based on this circumstantial evidence that this is the wedding of Cornelius Phelan and Bridget Walsh, but would need to find a marriage record or a newspaper article to be sure.



Photographer: A. H. Poole

Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford

Date: c.24 February 1922

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 2989

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 21361
ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland weddinggroup tophats trilbys bowlerhats ladieshats furstoles necklaces hatoriffic tramore countywaterford grandhotel turretplace thesquare rings bride groom poolephotographiccollection

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  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 21/Feb/2018 09:12:59

    There is a house called Kilgainy near Clonmel on the 25" map, but it does not match what we see here. It is gone today.

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    Carol Maddock

    • 21/Feb/2018 09:27:19

    Some lovely hattage there for our https://www.flickr.com/photos/la_belle_province/!

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 21/Feb/2018 10:02:57

    24 February 1922 was a Friday ...

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Feb/2018 10:09:55

    Here is the death record of Cornelius Phelan of Kilgainey: civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/death.... He died in 1949 aged 73. That gives him a birth year of about 1876, making him about 46 in 1922. Haven’t found a plausible marriage record yet for any Phelan in that part of the country.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Feb/2018 11:31:55

    Okay - a few more leads 04/01/1918 - Freemans Journal lists sale of land (at Kilganey & Croan) & a 'beautiful residence' to Mr Con Phelan. Munster Express 19/10/1928 - Acttion by Waterford Board of Health against Mr Phelan of Kilganey for failure to register under 'Cowsheds & Dairy Act.' Irish Press 23/06/1945 - Andrew James Phelan, 1st son of Cornelius Phelan of Kilganey House, called to the bar in Dublin. (How old would that make the first son? Is it consistent with a 1922 marriage?) 1963 Law Directory has him based in London. Irish Press 26/05/1949 reports the closure of the Factory and Showrooms of Phelan & Company, South Brown Street, for a day on account of the death of our Cornelius Phelan (death record above) who was a director of the company. The firm (per Thom's 1937) was listed as 'furniture, wire mattress, curled hair, and bedding manufacturers' and gave the proprietor as MF Phelan of Ailesbury Road.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 21/Feb/2018 12:07:30

    Weddings are usually from the brides home, so Clonmel itself could be a red herring if the Phelan getting married was a son.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Feb/2018 12:30:12

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ Not a Son of Cornelius Phelan. His eldest son was called to the bar in 1945. Either Cornelius himself is the groom, or a brother of his, or a sister is the bride would seem the most likely scenarios. The background looks Urban. Possibly the garden of a hotel?

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Feb/2018 12:36:12

    BTW, a small point - the groom doesn’t seem to be wearing a ring. In the old marriage ceremony the groom gave the bride a ring, but the bride didn’t give the groom one. (This, perhaps, varied in different places.)

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    John A. Coffey

    • 21/Feb/2018 12:41:48

    The groom is not wearing his ring, wonder is he holding it with his gloves ?

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    La Belle Province

    • 21/Feb/2018 13:14:14

    This! This put springtime in my heart. Thank you, Carol. The droopy-sided one in the front row was the latest thing in '22.

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    ofarrl

    • 21/Feb/2018 14:55:48

    I believe this was taken at Turret Place Tramore. This is just across the street from the Grand Hotel. Turret Place Streetview

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    Niall McAuley

    • 21/Feb/2018 19:47:15

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Looks good to me, Paul!

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Feb/2018 19:56:08

    I’m scratching my head at the fact that we haven’t been able to track down a Phelan wedding for this time period as a likely match. Could it be that Cornelius Phelan was the best man? For someone seemingly well-to-do, involved in both farming & business he has left a very faint footprint both in the local press and on the Civil Records. I also think it interesting to compare this wedding photo & the Cassin wedding of last Friday. Even though the Cassin photo shows what looks like a group of people of comfortable standing, the top hats & the slightly more formal dress makes this group look a notch higher on the social scale.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 22/Feb/2018 13:22:44

    Thanks https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]. Like https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley, I'm inclined to agree. Looks a more than plausible location to me. Have added to the map/description. Like https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy, I'm intrigued that we haven't identified the bride and groom. Armed with the Grand Hotel as a possible location, I will take a look at the archives later on.

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    ofarrl

    • 22/Feb/2018 14:31:06

    www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/ I'm pretty certain of the location. The two houses behind the group are visible in several of the photos in the Lawrence collection. This General View of Tramore has a good view of them between Turret House(no longer there) and the Grand Hotel.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 23/Feb/2018 01:31:42

    Agreed https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]. Looks pretty solid/certain to me too. Unfortunately, for my own part, I cannot find any likely candidates for the wedding party. A search in the 1922 newspaper archives for weddings, Phelan or otherwise, in Tramore, Clonmel or rounadabouts, have proven pretty fruitless. As https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy notes, I'm intruiged how faint a trail has been left by Con Phelan in the local records (especially given that he would have been reasonable substantial landowner in Croan and Kilganey after spending £2000 on 74 acres). I also wonder if he was a "patron" (to a niece or nephew or brother or similar) or otherwise not directly related to the bride/groom. Otherwise one imagines there would be more "coverage" of a big Phelan wedding.....

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    Niall McAuley

    • 17/Jun/2019 11:07:25

    Here is the record of Richard Phelan, Farmer, of Mullinavat marrying Catherine Kinsella, also Mullinavat, on the 23rd. Witness/best man is a WIlliam Phelan, and the priest was Fintan Phelan. Richard is 24, his father was another Thomas Phelan, a farmer.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 10:02:07

    I can't find a suitable wedding either, nor can I find a suitable Cornelius Phelan getting married at any date! [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] The abstract of the Who's Who entry for Andrew Phelan gives a date of birth of 25 July 1923. In 1911, Cornelius Phelan is in Dublin boarding, and his occupation is given as a Furniture Commercial Traveller. There is also a Michael Phelan, living with his sister, wife and kids in Dublin, who is a Bedding Manufacturer. This is the MF Phelan referenced above, and is the brother of Cornelius Phelan. See this description of his son Louis's funeral in 1927 - where he is given as Michael Francis, living in Ailesbury Road and Cornelius is described as the uncle to Louis: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49893117448]

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 10:17:04

    Cornelius Phelan's gravestone gives some more information, as he is buried with his parents Maurice and Bridget, as well as his brother Patrick. There is also a grave for a Bridget Phelan of Kilganey House, that is possibly his wife. Unfortunately the accompanying death registry is not available. However, there are references to a Mrs. B. Phelan of Kilganey House in the articles about Cornelius Phelan's three sons' (Andrew, Vincent, Neil) engagements/weddings.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 10:47:21

    When I went looking for a Cornelius Phelan that was born in the mid-1870s, (to match the census, and death record) I couldn't find anyone, however there is a Cornelius Whelan registered in 1876, son of Maurice and Bridget of Ballinagulkee (or Ballinaguilkee). There is also a Patrick Whelan and Michael Whelan that would approx. fit the dates of census/death.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 12:27:29

    This is most likely Maurice and Bridget in 1901 and 1911. According to this, there were a total of 8 children. I've managed to find 7 - Patrick (1870), Anastasia (1872), Bridget (1873), Michael (1874), Cornelius (1876), Maurice (1878) and Margaret (1887). (I'm not sure if Minnie and Margaret are the same person - there is a 4 year gap in ages between the 2 censuses and there is one child missing, but I don't see a Minnie/Mary that fits. Unless she was born somewhere completely different!)

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 14:03:11

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I'm scratching my head about how to bring this any further - I did pop over to the baptism records & found that your Cornelius Whelan was baptised on the 20th of November 1876 - more than a week before his official birthdate, but these discrepancies aren't uncommon. What we really want is a birth record for one of Cornelius's children so that we can find his wife's maiden name. I don't suppose the newspaper records of the marriages of the sons give any hint as to what her maiden name might be? Any references to uncles or cousins that might give us a clue?

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 14:16:51

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy There's a reference to a Rev. James Lawn being a cousin to the bridegroom here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49894593497 And she was definitely Bridget, as I found a death notice: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49894596902

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 15:22:36

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] I think I can speculate as to who the bride might be. I'll spell out my reasoning in brief. Rev. James Lawn - ordained in Dungarvan, 20th Sept 1931 per Irish Catholic Directory. (Died in the late 1970s) Lawn is a VERY unusual surname in the South East. So found his birth record really easily - son of Charles Lawn (draper) and his wife Margaret Walsh of the Square, Dungarvan, 30th January 1909. Found their marriage record easily - Wed in Mount Mellary, Cappoquin on 28th April 1908 by Rev. Nicholas Walsh CC. BUT - Charles Lawn was - as far as I can tell - born in Donegal. So unlikely to have any Waterford relations. AND Margaret Walsh is from Lisleagh, Ballynamult. LESS THAN A KILOMETRE from Ballinaguilkee, which is the home of our suspicious looking Whelans, above. And, per the census, Margaret has a little sister called Bridget. www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001226746/ So, if she's the bride in the pic, she'd be about 34 years old, which doesn't seem unreasonable. Given a possible family connection, maybe one of the priests is Fr Nicholas Walsh who did the Lawn/Walsh wedding. I'm not saying the bride is definitely Bridget Walsh, but it's interesting how the trail leads to a girl that was a near neighbour of the Whelans.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 14/May/2020 15:53:29

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I am watching the two of you, good work today. Let me have a summary when you are finished and I will put it in the description. Mary

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 16:16:43

    I've come to a bit of a dead end - I'm hoping that Sharon might be able to turn up information that might confirm or contradict my speculations above.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 16:38:11

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] That sounds plausible to me. I'm fairly convinced that this is Cornelius Phelan and Bridget Walsh - but I'm still irritated that I can't find any mention of this wedding anywhere. I've tried looking for Cornelius Phelan marrying at any time between 1911 (when he was still single in the census) and 1923 (when his son was born) and can't find anything. Bridget Walsh is a bit harder to rule out! But I can rule out some of his siblings: Mary "Minnie" in 1912 Margaret in 1926 Anastasia in 1907 Michael in 1904 (These have also married too late for it to be a nephew/niece too).

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 16:42:03

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy All I've turned up so far is a MyHeritage family tree that does appear to have a Cornelius Phelan marrying Bridget A. Walsh, and a different father for Cornelius Phelan (Patrick) that doesn't match the gravestone, and a couple of other errors/inconsistencies.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 17:16:57

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I've been poking around too and haven't turned up anything. One funny coincidence is that one of the priests in the picture _may_ be the OTHER Fr Nicholas Walsh. Canon Nicholas Walsh - the guy who did the Lawn/Walsh wedding was Parish Priest in Tramore by 1922. If the wedding was in Tramore church, he could well have been present. The fact that the (possible) bride's brother is a Nicholas hints that Canon Nicholas Walsh may be a relation BUT there are so many Walshes and so many Nicholases in the South East, it could all be a coincidence. The answer to this may be in the church registers in Tramore or some other church. It seems as though the civil registration has gone missing. One of the things that strikes me as interesting is the names that Cornelius Phelan gave his sons - Andrew, Neil and Vincent. Neil is, presumably, after his father; but Andrew or Vincent don't seem to show up as 'family' names in any of the places that we've been looking. Have you been able to figure out who had Kilganey House before Cornelius?

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 17:46:41

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] Front page of the Dungarvan Observer from August 11 1951 has an obituary of Charles Lawn with mourners including his sister-in-law, Mrs. B. Phelan of Kilganey House, Clonmel.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 17:48:25

    (How many priests do you need at a funeral?)

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 17:54:43

    This seems to have been Kilgain(e)y House in 1911 - www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003471853/ landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.... I can't figure out when Helena Pedder died & don't have access to anything to tell me what happened to the house. Ah, wait - calendar of wills from 1917: www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014920...

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 21:26:53

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet WOWSERS! That's quite a turnout. You'd have to imagine that since we have solidified that connection between Mrs Phelan and her in-laws the Lawns, that ASSUMING that's Cornelius & Bridget's wedding (it _must) be), that Mr & Mrs Lawn are almost certainly amongst the guests. BTW, in the profession we'd call a family with that amount of clergy (3 sons!) a Levitical Family - a reference to the Tribe of Levi from the Old Testament.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 14/May/2020 21:41:00

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] The oldest of the Lawn girls (Mary) was born in 1910. civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth... She just might be the girl in the photo who could well be a 12 year old. Looks like she was Sr Francis Mary by the time of her father's funeral. The next Lawn girl to appear in the birth records is Margaret who would only have been 4 when the wedding happened. BTW, sorry for not replying to your comment earlier. For some reason it didn't show up when I was on here before.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 14/May/2020 22:35:10

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] I think we more or less cross-posted! I do it quite often :-) After a quick check, of the 4 parents, only Bridget Phelan (the Elder) was still alive in 1922. Maurice died in 1918, according to his gravestone, whereas James Walsh died in 1917, and Mary Walsh died in 1921. As for the young girl, there are also a few possibilities on the Phelan side - Mary "Maureen" Phelan and Marcella Phelan would have been 14 and 11 in February 1922. Henry and Anastasia Pyper and James and Minnie Long had no kids that I could find, and Valentine and Margaret Dunne weren't married until later. I'm still not quite sure what they are doing in Tramore though. Unless Bridget Walsh moved there after her parents deaths?

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/May/2020 09:29:34

    I can well imagine the sister and brother-in-law hosting the wedding if both the parents were deceased. The seeming change from Whelan to Phelan bugs me. I'd love to know the story about that. It strikes me as being just a little too late for people to be careless about how they spelled their name. I know that in some parts of Munster that a 'W' sound is very close to an 'F' sound, so a Whelan becoming a Phelan isn't all that strange. In some parts of North Kerry you'll hear f'wat and f'wen instead of what and when. Not sure if that's how they talk in that part of Waterford, though. I might have another lead on identifying this photo but it may come to nothing, so I'll keep my powder dry for the moment.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/May/2020 12:42:24

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] The Lawns were in Dungarvan rather than Tramore, though, but there may have been other relatives in Tramore, or a godparent or something. The Whelan-Phelan switch is a bit odd, but it seems to have happened some time between the birth of Margaret in 1887 and the 1901 census. The Whelan family and the Phelans that I have found so far have been too consistent with each other for it to be a different family from what I can see. I even note that Patrick Phelan's burial record mentions him being born in Ballinamult. The Irish Genealogy site treats Phelan and Whelan as the same, which is how I came across Cornelius Whelan to start with. I wasn't paying too much attention to the surnames, otherwise I would have skipped over it. Here's Maurice Whelan and Bridget Connors' wedding, interestingly, although they were from Fethard and Ballinaguilkee, they were married in Dungarvan.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/May/2020 13:50:38

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Or possibly they got married in Tramore because Canon Nicholas Walsh PP was her uncle: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49898030367 (At least he is her niece's great-uncle.)

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/May/2020 14:05:05

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] I was growing dubious about Fr Nicholas Walsh's connection to the family, because according to this, he was a native of Grange, which doesn't seem near to any of the other characters in our story. snap.waterfordcoco.ie/collections/ebooks/106989/A%20glimp... Anyway, Canon Walsh was 85 when he died in 1942. civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/death... So he would have been 65 for the wedding - making him a candidate for the older priest in the top hat. I'll go and do a little more research on him.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/May/2020 14:15:44

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] According to their marriage record Bridget Walsh's mother was from Lisleagh, her father James was from Ballybrusa, which Google has helpfully identified for me as a townland in Grange. So that would match.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/May/2020 14:48:36

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] Per the 1911 Census, Nicholas Walsh was 51 www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003302864/ That'd make him 62 for the wedding - again, making him a plausible candidate for the oldest of the 3 priests shown. That'd mean he was born about 1860. Given that he seems to appear in the Irish Catholic directory in the mid-1880s, that'd correspond with him being ordained in his 20s. Also, good catch on making the Grange connection. I'm afraid my head is spinning somewhat with all the back-and-forth between these places!

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    sharon.corbet

    • 15/May/2020 16:08:07

    The priest on the left was also in the White-Ross wedding photo, which also took place in Tramore. (I think, I'm not great on faces.) The wedding cert. then gave the officiant as Thomas O'Brien. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/23877070966] We previously visited the bridesmaids at the Gallwey-O'Neill Power wedding, and the comments there mentioned that "Very Rev. Canon Walsh, P.P., performed the ceremony with Nuptial Mass and Papal Blessing." [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/7392787374]

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    Bernard Healy

    • 15/May/2020 17:47:38

    Kudos to Sharon for having the idea of searching through the other Tramore wedding photos. I'm pretty convinced that the priest on the front row is Fr Thomas O'Brien, CC of Tramore, later in life Canon and Parish Priest of Dungarvan. The Irish Catholic Directory records his death as being on the 10th of January 1953. Per the 1911 Census, he was based in Waterford City and was 35 years old. That'd make him about 46 at the time of our 1922 wedding. I'm also pretty sure that the older priest in the top hat is Canon Nicholas Walsh PP of Tramore from 1919 to his death in 1942. He appears in several Tramore wedding photos over that period - more than any other priest as far as I can see. Note that in this pic catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000594254 he seems to be wearing a more elaborate garb than the usual black soutane or suit of an ordinary priest - additional evidence for him being a Canon. (I THINK this is a different wedding to the one with the smiling bridesmaids - everyone seems quite serious!) We're still lacking definitive identification of the wedding couple. I suspect that some of records from Tramore from that period are missing - either destroyed or not digitised. However, we have a lot of circumstantial evidence built up at the moment.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 16/May/2020 11:51:02

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] You're right, it is a different wedding. And I'm now not sure if it is even a Tramore wedding. I went looking for more O'Neill Power weddings, and couldn't find any, then started to see if I could find another photo of this wedding. There are at a couple including one entitled Wedding, group of eight : commissioned by Mrs. Sadlier, Cashel. Others have no names attached like this one. In fact, the O'Neill Power-Gallwey and Sadlier photos seem to be a bit confused - this is allegedly commisioned by Sadlier but is of the O'Neill Power-Gallwey wedding. The dates for the Sadlier photos also range from 3rd July 1929 to 2nd August. Naturally, I haven't yet found a suitable wedding of a Sadlier in the summer of 1929, as that would be too easy!

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    sharon.corbet

    • 16/May/2020 12:15:12

    There's a Kathleen Sadleir marrying Augustus O'Shea in Cashel on July 3rd 1929. The wedding was officiated by Monsignor Innocent Ryan who can be seen on p14 here.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 16/May/2020 13:49:20

    That same wedding turns up a third time incidentally, this time Commissioned by Miss Morris, Villa Marina, Dunmore East. However, I have since found another wedding photo featuring several priests in Tramore, and both Thomas O'Brien and the suspected Nicholas Walsh are both there. However, William Ryan officiated (brother of the bride): [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/49900747128] Thomas O'Brien is also at the Magner-Smyth Wedding: [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/34691002055]

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    Bernard Healy

    • 17/May/2020 22:10:13

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Well spotted! The resemblance between Msgr I Ryan and Canon N Walsh is uncanny. However, I still think that Canon N Walsh shows up in enough Tramore photos to make him the best candidate for our Phelan wedding. Re: the Scully/Ryan wedding, the younger priest with glasses is a guy I've seen in a few photos - I'd guess that he is the 3rd priest of Tramore parish, one Fr Matthew Caroll who arrived there as curate circa 1928. (Not a sure identification, but we might find this a useful clue for the future.) That'd make the guy at the back left Fr William Ryan.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 18/May/2020 09:59:47

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] Yes, I'm pretty sure that the older priest is Canon Nicholas Walsh. I think I've found him again here with another Canon Walsh. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] To try and summarise: -This photo was taken and the wedding itself was in Tramore, backed up by [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]'s identification of the location, and the presence of the priests from Tramore. (Thomas O'Brien, Nicholas Walsh) - Cornelius Phelan married Bridget Walsh, the niece of Canon Nicholas Walsh, parish priest of Tramore at the time, sometime before 1923, but after 1911, but there is no record of this available - There are no other Phelan marriages that would be suitable - The civil records site doesn't appear to have *any* weddings in Tramore between 20th Feb and 28th Feb 1922 I think that we are more or less convinced based on this circumstantial evidence that this is the wedding of Cornelius Phelan and Bridget Walsh, but would need to find a marriage record or a newspaper article to be sure.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 18/May/2020 12:11:43

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/ Sharon summarises it nicely. Given the way this wedding party is dressed & so on, the fact that the groom's address used to be a landed estate and so on, it is tempting to see this wedding photograph as a manifestation of the ascent of a well-to-do Catholic middle class over the prior decades. The census record for the (assumed) bride's family showing that their farmstead had a LOT of outbuildings; the fact that the Walsh name doesn't appear in that townland for Griffith's valuation, the fact that they have an uncle who is a Canon, the fact that the bride's brother was a bank official (presumably he's in the picture), the other sister being married to the owner of what was probably a prominent drapery shop, etc, etc... tells a story of a family that has, it seems, done well. (I appreciate that this could be reading too much into what we see.) BTW, it's an interesting coincidence that the bride's brother was mentioned in a previous post - albeit in the context of being a dead-end who was unconnected with the photo. www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/27224504002/#comment72157...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 18/May/2020 21:53:23

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Thank you. Description updated.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 19/May/2020 13:07:41

    www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet/ www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/ UPDATE AND IDENTIFICATION KLAXON. The kind people at Tramore parish were willing to check their records & have managed to confirm much of the detective work that we have done. 23rd February 1922 - Marriage at Tramore Church Groom: Cornelius Phelan, Clonmel; son of Maurice and ?? (nee O'Connor) Phelan, of Upper Ballinaguilkee, Touraneena (Touraneena is the name of the Catholic Parish where Ballinaguilkee is found) Bride: Bridget Walsh, Lisleagh, Touraneena; daughter of James and Mary (nee Power) Walsh, of Lisleagh, Touraneena. The priest for the wedding was indeed the Parish Priest, Nicholas Walsh, almost certainly the bride's uncle. Witnesses: Laurence O'Connor, The Quay, Waterford. (He was a shopkeeper and was to marry in Tramore later that year. civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marri... ) Margaret Phelan, Kilganey, Clonmel. It's interesting that the female witness for the wedding is the groom's sister - although it's very possible that she was close to the bride as they grew up neighbours & were the same age in the 1901 Census. Anyway, I'm sure there's more detective work that could be done, but I'll leave this comment as is, so that the focus can be on the solid information we got from the parish.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 19/May/2020 13:27:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Brilliant work, well done. Mary

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    sharon.corbet

    • 19/May/2020 13:44:52

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Great to get everything confirmed. (Including the mysterious Whelan to Phelan transformation.)

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    Bernard Healy

    • 19/May/2020 13:57:40

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] I've been thinking about that. I know there's only a small pocket of Gaeltacht left in Waterford nowadays, but I'm pretty sure that the 1870s would have been a transition period for much of rural Waterford as regards the 1st language of the people. In 1901, the older people in the Whelan household are listed as having both Irish and English, but the youngest child (Margaret) only has English. www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Kilma... This would explain the inconsistency between the birth registration in the 1870s & the Census in 1901.

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    an poc

    • 30/May/2020 15:55:33

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Fantastic detective work by you, https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet et al. Whelan and Phelan are still sometimes used interchangeably in Co. Waterford, in conversation anyway.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 01/Jun/2020 08:58:13

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Good to know! Thank you!

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    Bernard Healy

    • 20/Jul/2020 13:21:19

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Mary, a brief update: In the course of checking the marriage record with the local parish, they offered to show the photo to a local historian, and I got a note back with the following information: He confirmed the details of the wedding already determined, points to the family connection between Father Phelan and the Walsh family, and he adds that the witnesses to the wedding (Laurence O'Connor and Margaret Phelan) were married in the same church later that year. He then adds that Cornelius and Bridget had one son, Andrew James Phelan, born in Kilgainey on 25 July 1923. He was educated at Clongowes Wood and later at Cambridge. He practised as a barrister in England and wrote several books about sailing including "Ireland from the Sea" and "The Law for Small Boats." He became a circuit court judge in England and retired after 21 years in that post, and then was elected to the Royal Cruising Club. He died at his home in Chiswick, London on 3 March 2013 and was survived by his wife, one son and two daughters. His passing was noted by Seascapes: www.rte.ie/radio1/seascapes/programmes/2013/0308/375764-s... The only person in the photograph that the local historian was able to identify was Father Nicholas Phelan, (so that's a solid identification) and assumes that this is because most of the people at the wedding would have been from the Clonmel area, with perhaps some Waterford people connected to the O'Connor family. He speculates that these O'Connors may be connected to a well known pharmacist on the Waterford, one Michael O'Connor, was said to be better than any doctor. Finally, as regards location, despite the one already assigned looking good to me, he suggests that it might actually have been taken at Atlantic View Terrace – I can’t get a great streetview image: goo.gl/maps/mg6DD1ctHwyxfxjL6

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    ofarrl

    • 20/Jul/2020 17:06:45

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] no, its definitely not Atlantic View terrace, arch detail at the front door is much narrower than the ones in the photo above. You can catch a glimpse of the door just above the hedge in this streetview and there is a photo of Atlantic View Terrace in the NLI catalogue although it doesn't clearly show the front doors unfortunately.

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    Bernard Healy

    • 21/Jul/2020 10:06:50

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ I agree. I thought the existing identification was stronger.