Donnacomper, Celbridge, Co. Kildare

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Where: Kildare, Ireland

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When: Unknown

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On this Monday we present a fine Lawrence shot of Donnacomper. What can you tell us about it?

And the main things that our contributors "told us about" were the house/estate, and the lads (in the cart) by its back-door :)

On the estate, we learned that Donaghcumper House was built in the late 18th century (1770s), and significantly remodeled in Tudor Revival style in the 19th century (1830s) .It was primarily associated with the Kirkpatrick family.

On the lads in the cart, the consensus is that they are members of the extended Kirkpatrick family. And, while several other Kirkpatrick "cousins" are possible, it seems plausible that the boys in the cart are the sons of Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick. Namely: Ivone Hayford Thorold (1884-1913), and his younger brother Rupert Alexander Thorold (1886-1951). They lived with their mother at Donaghcumper, and Ivone may have been in his early teens in this picture. Perhaps dating it to the 1890s...


(FYI - I was in Temple Bar over the weekend and I dropped into the Photo Detectives Exhibition at the National Photographic Archive it is really worth a visit (or a revisit), please do not miss out if you are in the area. )

Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Catalogue range c.1865-1914. Perhaps c.1890s

NLI Ref: L_CAB_07013

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 20152
robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection lawrencephotographicstudio glassnegative nationallibraryofireland celbridge countykildare donaghcumper donaghcumperdemesne demesne donacomper donnacomper kids cart children house tudorrevival cokildare leinster kirkpatrick rupertthorold ivone ivonethorold marykirkpatrick marythorold pony boys lawrencephotographcollection

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  • profile

    B-59

    • 20/Nov/2017 08:52:35

    Donaghcumper on the OSI map maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,697968,733380,12,9

  • profile

    B-59

    • 20/Nov/2017 08:56:07

    "28 Donaghcumper House and Demesne ... The present house was remodelled in 1835 in the Tudor revival style. Tom Conolly of Castletown leased Donaghcumper in 1803 to extend the estate’s landscape across the river." www.discovercelbridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Disc...

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 20/Nov/2017 09:04:58

    Discover Celbridge page: From the avenue, another of Celbridge’s important houses can be seen: Donaghcumper, former residence of the Kirkpatrick family one of whom played a significant diplomatic role during World War II and its aftermath. I'm guessing they mean Ivone Kirkpatrick, British High Commissioner for Germany after WWII.

  • profile

    B-59

    • 20/Nov/2017 09:27:15

    "Donaghcumper ... is a Tudor revival house built by William Kirkpatrick c1835, was sold after the death of Ivone Kirkpatrick to J Bruce Bredin, Springfield." yovla.com/en/article/Celbridge

  • profile

    B-59

    • 20/Nov/2017 09:36:02

    digital.ucd.ie/view/ucdlib:46939 indicates that in 1934 Donaghcumper House was the residence of a William T. Kirkpatrick.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 20/Nov/2017 09:44:57

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I think the two boys in the cart look like "boys of the house" rather than servants?

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Nov/2017 09:48:48

    Rear view (from the south-west) with DOG - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000333716

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 20/Nov/2017 10:14:04

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yes, that is a tiny pony and cart for children, so the lads are probably family of the owners.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 20/Nov/2017 10:18:36

    1901 and 1911 censusseses both show Kirkpatricks at Donaghcumper, but none of the boys age.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Nov/2017 10:25:12

    Interesting historical paper by William Fitzpatrick from 1896 - information about the spelling, church ( catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000322131 ), but nothing about this particular house - ardclough.wordpress.com/about/ardclough-history/xtras-hin...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 20/Nov/2017 10:27:08

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Niall, what about Rupert Thorold Grand Son in 1901 - he must be a candidate?

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 20/Nov/2017 11:38:39

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] According to the peerage, Rupert had an older brother Ivone Hayford. (As well as 3 sisters).

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 20/Nov/2017 11:40:57

    Here are the Thorolds in Sligo in 1911.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 20/Nov/2017 11:53:07

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It could be the brothers in the cart?

  • profile

    guliolopez

    • 20/Nov/2017 12:01:01

    Seems eminently plausible to me. That it's Rupert and Ivone. The 1911 census entry that Sharon links says that both lads were born in County Kildare. And the 1901 census entry places Rupert (and his mother) at Donaghcumper. Suggesting the extended family were "around" in the late 19th century. If it is the lads, it's interesting to think who they would grow up to become. (Though slightly confusing - given how "Ivone" was a much-used name in the family...)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Nov/2017 13:14:56

    Ivone Hayford Thorold was born on 3 October 1884. He was the son of Hayford Douglas Thorold and Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick.2 He died on 30 October 1913 at age 29. He graduated with a Trin College Dublin Bachelor of Arts (B.A.)1 He was Lieutenant Hampshire Regiment. www.thepeerage.com/p59326.htm#i593251 Rupert Alexander Thorold was born in February 1886. He was the son of Hayford Douglas Thorold and Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick. He died on 3 November 1951 at age 65. www.thepeerage.com/p59326.htm#i593252 I think they look about 14 and 12 here - so photo is 1898-ish? Ed. Place index Donacomper - www.thepeerage.com/pd741.htm#i34825

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 20/Nov/2017 15:45:44

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] This website with a picture of his headstone suggests that he died in 1915. Possibly a mis-transcription? I've strained my eyes trying to read the gravestone.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Nov/2017 20:19:21

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] 1884 + 29 = 1913 The Hampshire Regiment, Second Lieutenant Ivone H. Thorold is retired from the service on account of ill-health, under the provisions of Article 526A, Royal Warrant for Pay and Promotion, 1906. Dated 28th September, 1907 www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28063/page/6495/data.pdf (September 1907) A trip to the cemetery anyone ? !

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 20/Nov/2017 20:38:02

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] However: The notification regard- ing the retirement of Second Lieutenant Ivone H. Thorold, which appeared in the Gazette of 27th September, 1907, is cancelled. (The Gazette, December 1, 1908.)

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 20/Nov/2017 20:39:31

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ D’oh! I can’t believe I missed that.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 20/Nov/2017 20:43:10

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet D’oh! I can’t believe I missed that. ;-)

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 21/Nov/2017 08:46:45

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Don't be so hard on yourselves!

  • profile

    julie.mcneill1

    • 21/Jun/2020 23:02:45

    Lovely picture - my Scottish GGGrandfather Robert Ross, was a Coachman in 1901 Census. The family residence is the Commons? The Religion is Church of Ireland, but his wife and kids are Christened Roman Catholic..pragmatic?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 22/Jun/2020 07:50:45

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/brisbane_valley Hi Julie, interesting information on your family. Perhaps a mixed marriage? Up to recently where a Catholic married a non Catholic the church insisted that any children would be raised as Catholics!