Donnacomper, Celbridge, Co. Kildare
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Where: Kildare, Ireland
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When: Unknown
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On this Monday we present a fine Lawrence shot of Donnacomper. What can you tell us about it?
And the main things that our contributors "told us about" were the house/estate, and the lads (in the cart) by its back-door :)
On the estate, we learned that Donaghcumper House was built in the late 18th century (1770s), and significantly remodeled in Tudor Revival style in the 19th century (1830s) .It was primarily associated with the Kirkpatrick family.
On the lads in the cart, the consensus is that they are members of the extended Kirkpatrick family. And, while several other Kirkpatrick "cousins" are possible, it seems plausible that the boys in the cart are the sons of Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick. Namely: Ivone Hayford Thorold (1884-1913), and his younger brother Rupert Alexander Thorold (1886-1951). They lived with their mother at Donaghcumper, and Ivone may have been in his early teens in this picture. Perhaps dating it to the 1890s...
(FYI - I was in Temple Bar over the weekend and I dropped into the Photo Detectives Exhibition at the National Photographic Archive it is really worth a visit (or a revisit), please do not miss out if you are in the area. )
Photographer: Robert French
Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection
Date: Catalogue range c.1865-1914. Perhaps c.1890s
NLI Ref: L_CAB_07013
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 61507
And the main things that our contributors "told us about" were the house/estate, and the lads (in the cart) by its back-door :)
On the estate, we learned that Donaghcumper House was built in the late 18th century (1770s), and significantly remodeled in Tudor Revival style in the 19th century (1830s) .It was primarily associated with the Kirkpatrick family.
On the lads in the cart, the consensus is that they are members of the extended Kirkpatrick family. And, while several other Kirkpatrick "cousins" are possible, it seems plausible that the boys in the cart are the sons of Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick. Namely: Ivone Hayford Thorold (1884-1913), and his younger brother Rupert Alexander Thorold (1886-1951). They lived with their mother at Donaghcumper, and Ivone may have been in his early teens in this picture. Perhaps dating it to the 1890s...
(FYI - I was in Temple Bar over the weekend and I dropped into the Photo Detectives Exhibition at the National Photographic Archive it is really worth a visit (or a revisit), please do not miss out if you are in the area. )
Photographer: Robert French
Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection
Date: Catalogue range c.1865-1914. Perhaps c.1890s
NLI Ref: L_CAB_07013
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 61507
robertfrench
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glassnegative
nationallibraryofireland
celbridge
countykildare
donaghcumper
donaghcumperdemesne
demesne
donacomper
donnacomper
kids
cart
children
house
tudorrevival
cokildare
leinster
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rupertthorold
ivone
ivonethorold
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B-59
Donaghcumper on the OSI map maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,697968,733380,12,9
B-59
"28 Donaghcumper House and Demesne ... The present house was remodelled in 1835 in the Tudor revival style. Tom Conolly of Castletown leased Donaghcumper in 1803 to extend the estate’s landscape across the river." www.discovercelbridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Disc...
Niall McAuley
Discover Celbridge page: From the avenue, another of Celbridge’s important houses can be seen: Donaghcumper, former residence of the Kirkpatrick family one of whom played a significant diplomatic role during World War II and its aftermath. I'm guessing they mean Ivone Kirkpatrick, British High Commissioner for Germany after WWII.
B-59
"Donaghcumper ... is a Tudor revival house built by William Kirkpatrick c1835, was sold after the death of Ivone Kirkpatrick to J Bruce Bredin, Springfield." yovla.com/en/article/Celbridge
B-59
digital.ucd.ie/view/ucdlib:46939 indicates that in 1934 Donaghcumper House was the residence of a William T. Kirkpatrick.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I think the two boys in the cart look like "boys of the house" rather than servants?
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Rear view (from the south-west) with DOG - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000333716
Niall McAuley
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yes, that is a tiny pony and cart for children, so the lads are probably family of the owners.
Niall McAuley
1901 and 1911 censusseses both show Kirkpatricks at Donaghcumper, but none of the boys age.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Interesting historical paper by William Fitzpatrick from 1896 - information about the spelling, church ( catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000322131 ), but nothing about this particular house - ardclough.wordpress.com/about/ardclough-history/xtras-hin...
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Niall, what about Rupert Thorold Grand Son in 1901 - he must be a candidate?
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] According to the peerage, Rupert had an older brother Ivone Hayford. (As well as 3 sisters).
sharon.corbet
Here are the Thorolds in Sligo in 1911.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It could be the brothers in the cart?
guliolopez
Seems eminently plausible to me. That it's Rupert and Ivone. The 1911 census entry that Sharon links says that both lads were born in County Kildare. And the 1901 census entry places Rupert (and his mother) at Donaghcumper. Suggesting the extended family were "around" in the late 19th century. If it is the lads, it's interesting to think who they would grow up to become. (Though slightly confusing - given how "Ivone" was a much-used name in the family...)
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
Ivone Hayford Thorold was born on 3 October 1884. He was the son of Hayford Douglas Thorold and Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick.2 He died on 30 October 1913 at age 29. He graduated with a Trin College Dublin Bachelor of Arts (B.A.)1 He was Lieutenant Hampshire Regiment. www.thepeerage.com/p59326.htm#i593251 Rupert Alexander Thorold was born in February 1886. He was the son of Hayford Douglas Thorold and Elizabeth Mary Kirkpatrick. He died on 3 November 1951 at age 65. www.thepeerage.com/p59326.htm#i593252 I think they look about 14 and 12 here - so photo is 1898-ish? Ed. Place index Donacomper - www.thepeerage.com/pd741.htm#i34825
Bernard Healy
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] This website with a picture of his headstone suggests that he died in 1915. Possibly a mis-transcription? I've strained my eyes trying to read the gravestone.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] 1884 + 29 = 1913 The Hampshire Regiment, Second Lieutenant Ivone H. Thorold is retired from the service on account of ill-health, under the provisions of Article 526A, Royal Warrant for Pay and Promotion, 1906. Dated 28th September, 1907 www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28063/page/6495/data.pdf (September 1907) A trip to the cemetery anyone ? !
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] However: The notification regard- ing the retirement of Second Lieutenant Ivone H. Thorold, which appeared in the Gazette of 27th September, 1907, is cancelled. (The Gazette, December 1, 1908.)
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ D’oh! I can’t believe I missed that.
ɹǝqɯoɔɥɔɐǝq
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet D’oh! I can’t believe I missed that. ;-)
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Don't be so hard on yourselves!
julie.mcneill1
Lovely picture - my Scottish GGGrandfather Robert Ross, was a Coachman in 1901 Census. The family residence is the Commons? The Religion is Church of Ireland, but his wife and kids are Christened Roman Catholic..pragmatic?
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/brisbane_valley Hi Julie, interesting information on your family. Perhaps a mixed marriage? Up to recently where a Catholic married a non Catholic the church insisted that any children would be raised as Catholics!