Heavy traffic expected soon

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Where: Northern Ireland, Dungannon, United Kingdom

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When: 01 January 1880

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
As you can tell from the ladies in the centre of the road, heavy traffic is anticipated any day soon! This beautiful photograph of the Market Square in Dungannon, County Tyrone shows traders all set up in anticipation of sales to the people who must surely come to the market! I haven't spotted a dog yet but in a scene such as this there must surely be one about.

While some of the discussion today was on the 1871 Scots Baronial style barracks (and the almost certainly apocryphal story that the tower design was intended for constabulary barracks in the Far East), much of the conversation focused on the dating of the image. And indeed the timing of the image. The general consensus, based on the businesses present, is that this image dates from the early 1880s. Probably on a Thursday (which was market day in that period). And likely in the late afternoon (because of the shadows cast).....


Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Catalogue range c.1865-1914. Definitely after 1871 (tower). And before 1891 (post office) Likely c.1800 (businesses)

NLI Ref: L_CAB_02160

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 22431
robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection lawrencephotographicstudio glassnegative nationallibraryofireland market marketsquare dungannon cotyrone northernireland ulster women men carts wares displayed hill barrels countytyrone tower policestation ricbarracks dúngeanainn ranfurlyarmshotel johncompton earlofranfurly marshall jwrobinson printingoffice marketday thursday lawrencephotographcollection

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  • profile

    Rory_Sherlock

    • 01/Nov/2017 09:36:27

    Streetview: www.google.ie/maps/@54.50453,-6.7693629,3a,75y,64.41h,98....

  • profile

    Rory_Sherlock

    • 01/Nov/2017 09:43:58

    The Scots Baronial-style turreted building is the old Dungannon police station which was built in 1871. archiseek.com/2015/1871-ric-barrack-dungannon-co-tyrone/

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:01:45

    Same day - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000337900 A later market day - a Post Office has been built where the white gabled house at centre is, which should provide an 'earlier than' date - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000338219 . And a reverse view at the later date (?) - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000318567

  • profile

    i-lenticularis (NO GRAPHICS)

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:03:39

    Great to see this...my father's home town!

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:10:59

    Interesting https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] - that tower certainly gives a more ancient air (I guess what its builders were going for). That knocks at least 5 years off the lower bound of our catalogue range at any rate..

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:15:02

    An interesting feature of the town is the former police barracks at the top right-hand corner of the market square which is quite unlike any other barracks of a similar vintage in Ireland. A popular but apocryphal story relates that the unusual design of this building is due to a mix-up with the plans in Dublin which meant Dungannon got a station designed for the Nepal and they got a standard Irish barracks, complete with a traditional Irish fireplace. From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungannon Sounds like a familiar yarn !

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:25:54

    The DIA dates the Post Office to 1891: New post office on semi-octagonal plan. 2-storey block with 50 ft fontage. Red brick with white arches over windows and white brick string courses. Includes postmaster's private rooms, and Earl of Ranfurly's estate office. Builder: John Lowry & Sons. (Replaced by new post office by I.F.B. Richards, 1961.)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 01/Nov/2017 10:31:17

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Whoopee! 1871 - 1891 so far ...

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    Niall McAuley

    • 01/Nov/2017 11:29:30

    1877 street directory shows Compton, Marshall Druggist, but not J&W Robinson, it has 3 Frizells in town, but no Henry on the square. James Robinson is there by 1880, still no Henry Frizell. Henry is in situ by 1890, so we are after 1880.

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 01/Nov/2017 11:37:49

    This looks like a scene out of Darby O'Gill and the Little People. It's a lovely image.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 01/Nov/2017 11:54:00

    Robinson is gone again in 1884, so 1880-84. I am using the directories at PRONI, who also have a Flickr stream.

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    John Spooner

    • 01/Nov/2017 12:10:16

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] That (the story design mix-up) is what I was told when I was given a guided tour of Dungannon by a native. See also www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6788565746

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Nov/2017 12:17:27

    Lawrence applied for copyright of several images of Dungannon on 4th August 1882 discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=lawrence%... Unfortunately the description of the one of the Market Square doesn't match this one 'Photograph of Market Square, Dungannon, County Tyrone, on market day with soldier, lady with umbrella and other figures in foreground' I'll add it to my next-visit-to-Kew todo list.

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 01/Nov/2017 12:50:51

    arch over the building on the right with the crest is interesting

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Nov/2017 13:08:43

    The Printing Office in Market Square was (in the 1880s at least) the HQ of the Tyrone Courier. Below the masthead it claimed:

    Tyrone people should keep their money in the country. Printing of all sorts can be done, in black and white or other colours, at “Tyrone Courier” Printing Office, cheaper than in any town in Ireland – Belfast included, where many of the Dungannon Printing orders go to.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Nov/2017 13:41:36

    The Ranfurley Arms Hotel was put up for auction in July 1891,

    “together with the Spirit License attached thereto, and the Bar Fittings and Fixture, including the Household Furniture, Billiard Table, Stock-in-Trade, and other effects therein. The said premises are situate in MARKET SQUARE, DUNGANNON and contain 46 feet in front, and 320 feet from front to rear, or thereabouts. … The Premises are extensive, and completely fitted for Hotel purposes, comprising Commercial Room, Drawing Room, Coffee Room, Billiard Room, Ball Room, Bedrooms, Bar, &c., all in good condition. The Yard, Stables, and Out-offices are in thorough repair. The above Hotel is one of the oldest Establishments in Dungannon and a large and lucrative business has been carried on therein for many years.”
    Tyrone Constitution - Friday 12 June 1891

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 01/Nov/2017 16:36:52

    Here's a picture of the coat of arms on the hotel. BTW, from various sources online, it seems that Market Day in Dungannon was Thursday. Also, I think I _might_ have spotted a dog coming out of one of the buildings on the left of the photo.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Nov/2017 17:39:41

    Have I got my map upside down, or do the shadows show that the sun is in the west, which suggests that the lack of crowds is because everyone is on their way home rather than on their way to market?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 01/Nov/2017 19:54:32

    Great stuff as usual all - kudos to everyone for the sleuthing on the date (and time) of the image. I have attempted to summarise in the description :)

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 01/Nov/2017 20:22:30

    I wonder if it was Thursday 27th September 1883 - the Ranfurley Hotel, Post Office, and Market Square all get a mention - trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/169272635 . Even if it is not the same day, it is fun to imagine the drama unfolding on this stage.

  • profile

    foss54

    • 02/Nov/2017 10:55:10

    Another great photo, the pace of life was so much better in times passed.

  • profile

    mym

    • 08/Nov/2017 09:15:22

    The car has had a really bad effect on this one... www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.5044987,-6.7694231,3a,75y,39.76...

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Dec/2017 10:25:28

    Last week I went to Kew and booked out the Lawrence Dungannon market picture mentioned above. The Kew photo looks as if it was taken from the same viewpoint as the NLI one. It’s one of several views of Dungannon (mostly churches of various denominations, but also a couple of views from the west outside town (from which I deduce from smoke from a train that the wind was from the south)) for which copyright was registered on the same day (4th August 1882). Not a very good copy, but in my defence, it is the original print from 1882 covered in shiny protective celllphane, and I was wearing cotton gloves when taking the photo. Dungannon market I spent some time using the Kew megazoom facility (a Sherlock Holmes-type magnifying glass). The fronts of the buildings on the left are in shadow, but only just, so the sun is roughly in the southwest, making it mid afternoon. The market is busier. At first sight it looks promising that it was taken earlier on the same day, before traders packed up their stuff and went home. Some elements of the NLI photo are present in the Kew photo. 1. The stall on the left-hand side 2. The 2 carts in front of it 3. The large number of buckets and churns outside the hotel. But was it the same day? I don’t think so, because; 1.The carts on the left are in the same place, but they are not the same carts. 2. The goods on display at Compton’s shop are different. 3. The buckets are in the same place, but arranged differently. 4. And why would the photographer capture a view, go round the town for more views, then go back to take a photo of essentially the same scene? And if they did, then why not copyright all photos? As an aside, Lawrence put his own name as author. Was this before French started working for him? Or was Lawrence taking the credit for French's work? P1090567 On a similar form from 1894, French gets the credit William Lawrence and Robert French

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Dec/2017 10:33:19

    PS there are some fascinating little scenarios in the photo. I wonder what's going on here detail

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 01/Dec/2017 11:04:22

    And to muddy the waters still further, the Tyrone Constitution announced on 19th November 1880 (just in time for Christmas)

    VIEWS OF DUNGANNON. - A large variety of beautiful photographic views of Dungannon Park, Dungannon and vicinity, taken by Mr Lawrence of Dublin, by the direction of the Earl of Ranfurly are at present on sale at Mr. Richardson’s stationery shop in Church-street.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 01/Dec/2017 20:49:17

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner is hereby nominated for the Flickroonie Over-And-Above-The-Call-Of-Duty Awards !

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 02/Dec/2017 07:23:16

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner Bravo! On your questions: why would the photographer capture a view, go round the town for more views, then go back to take a photo of essentially the same scene? Because the light changes and might be better, and the market scene changes, and might make a better postcard. And if they did, then why not copyright all photos? I'm guessing there was a fee, and he would only copyright the ones he was issuing as postcards? If today's was one of those 1880 shots, why would he return just 2 years later to take identical ones? I think it is more likely that he took multiple similar ones on the same day in 1882.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 02/Dec/2017 20:21:39

    @https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia:

    John Spooner is hereby nominated for the Flickroonie Over-And-Above-The-Call-Of-Duty Awards !
    Resoundingly seconded! Thanks https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner!