College Green, Dublin City, Co. Dublin

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Where: Dublin, Ireland

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1890

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
King Billy on his horse, horse trams, horse cabs, a very clean College Green and apparently a bright sunny day, all add up to a very different shot to yesterdays DeValera train! Having said that to provide a puzzle as good as yesterday's would mean some great fun!

While subject and location were not really in question (and hence perhaps not as much fun to be had with the unknowns), it took some investigation from DannyM8 and Niall McAuley to narrow the date range on this. Niall in particular suggests that this is after 1889 (new railings for BoI/Parliament building), but before 1892 (electric street lights not yet installed)....


Photographer: Robert French

Collection: Lawrence Photograph Collection

Date: Catalogue range c.1865-1914. Probably c.1889-1892

NLI Ref: L_CAB_02264

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 21503
robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection lawrencephotographicstudio glassnegative nationallibraryofireland collegegreen kingwilliamoforange bankofireland thomasdavis horsetrams hackneycarts grattanstatue damestreet parliament colonnade hackneys 1890s lawrencephotographcollection

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  • profile

    Foxglove

    • 12/Oct/2017 07:38:56

    a perspective twist makes it appear that the statue to the fore is holding a scroll of paper (the shop awning )

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 07:58:09

    Per the old reliable wiki article on Dublin Tramways, the horse trams began service in 1872, and were electrified by 1901.

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    DannyM8

    • 12/Oct/2017 07:59:31

    In Thoms 1882 - Shanks Brothers are at 2 Foster Place and F H Killingly are at 3 Trinity Street. I see Shanks Killingly & Co at 2 Foster place in the photo, so I think it safe to presume we are after 1882.

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:12:05

    No Bicycles, which must put this back in the nineteenth rather than twentieth century.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:12:36

    Grattan with the shop awning is from 1875 per the DIA.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:26:15

    I see an 1880 building (at archiseek on the corner of College green and Anglesea Street (just behind the awning above).

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    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:29:52

    Archiseek says the Liverpool, London, Globe insurance building at the corner of Foster Place is from 1867, no help. Likewise the 1867 former bank at far left.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:30:53

    This 1893 bank is not built yet at left.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:45:03

    De Kuyper Holland's Geneva, on the side of the tram, is a brand of Jenever aka Dutch gin. De Kuyper are still in business.

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    DannyM8

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:46:22

    Our own https://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie has the following photo of Grattan Bridge - it shows the same Hippocampus street lights as the lights around the Grattan Statue. https://www.flickr.com/photos/swordscookie/15186331194

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    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 08:48:25

    The Bovril co. was formed in 1889 per wikipedia

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 12/Oct/2017 10:04:38

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] I'm not sure that we can take 1889 as being a lower bound because of the Bovril. I get the impression from Wikipedia that the drink was known as Bovril before the company was established.: Etymology The first part of the product's name comes from Latin bos, meaning "ox". Johnston took the -vril suffix from Edward Bulwer-Lytton's then-popular novel, The Coming Race (1870), whose plot revolves around a superior race of people, the Vril-ya, who derive their powers from an electromagnetic substance named "Vril". Therefore, Bovril indicates great strength obtained from an ox.[2] History In 1870, in the Franco-Prussian War, Napoleon III ordered one million cans of beef to feed his troops. The task of providing all this beef went to a Scotsman living in Canada named John Lawson Johnston. Large quantities of beef were available across the British Dominions and South America, but its transport and storage were problematic. Therefore, Johnston created a product known as 'Johnston's Fluid Beef', later called Bovril, to meet the needs of Napoleon III.[3] By 1888, over 3,000 UK public houses, grocers and dispensing chemists were selling Bovril. In 1889, the Bovril Company was formed.

  • profile

    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 12/Oct/2017 11:03:18

    Streetview - [ed. sorry folks! link fixed] - www.google.com.au/maps/@53.3444231,-6.2594794,3a,75y,268.... What was Mr French / Lawrence standing on to get that PoV ?

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 11:32:18

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] Point taken on Bovril vs. the Bovril Company. All the streetlights are gas: per our best (but not unimpeachable) reference on street lighting, this archiseek article, electric globes on tall posts were installed on College green in 1892, visible here around 1900: Trinity College Dublin, late 19th century This megazoomable shot in the archive shows an 1892 electric light slap in front of Grattan's statue, so we are before that 1892.

  • profile

    aidanhodson

    • 12/Oct/2017 12:03:59

    Point of view might be from a window in the Trinity College facade. See tip of light of front gate at bottom of the photo - also visible in this shot: L_ROY_03459

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 12/Oct/2017 12:35:00

    It's an extremely beautiful and interesting photo. I'm enjoying reading the detective work here. Is there any possibility the number of the tram could be used to date the pic? 150 is a pretty high number, so maybe it was only a recent addition...?

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 12/Oct/2017 12:37:19

    Or maybe it was later re-routed, in which case that might provide and upper limit.

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    dantheserene

    • 12/Oct/2017 12:50:36

    Does the seated statue on the building at right lack a head, or was it lost in a retouching or other process? It is lower than the top of the building to the left, so it should be visible based on cropping.

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    yukogaydu

    • 12/Oct/2017 14:03:19

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/

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    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 15:32:18

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] The photographers have cut the sky out of all of these pictures by physically altering the plate. If you zoom in on the archive copy you can see grey skies between and around fiddly bits like chimneypots. It is possible the statue lost its head in the process...

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 15:53:08

    From the DIA: Name: MILLAR & SYMES Building: CO. DUBLIN, DUBLIN, COLLEGE GREEN, BANK OF IRELAND Date: 1889 Nature: Improvements to courtyard & entrance gates. Repaving of courtyard with Cordingley & Sons patent granite concrete; new railings by Kennan & Sons. Base of Ballyknocken granite.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 16:03:17

    The railings in this shot are the same as todays streetview. I think we are after 1889. Will see if I can find a shot from earlier to confirm.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 16:05:42

    Yes, this STP shows different railings and is pre-1883.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 12/Oct/2017 16:06:46

    1889-1892 - I dare anyone to narrow it further!

  • profile

    philfluther

    • 12/Oct/2017 16:31:52

    "Bovril" providential. Virility, "Bovril". Slainte.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 12/Oct/2017 20:52:34

    Short shadows and parasols - midday in summer, except the clock says 14:55 - I could be wrong.

  • profile

    silverio10

    • 12/Oct/2017 21:36:29

    Buena serie de fotos antiguas

  • profile

    Bernard Healy

    • 12/Oct/2017 22:00:26

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley *Applause*

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 12/Oct/2017 23:13:23

    Thanks all. https://www.flickr.com/photos/mise-le-meas & https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia - I'd agree this was possible from a window in Trinity. https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley & https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] - Great work (as uzh) on the dating. Have updated the date in the description!

  • profile

    MR Photog

    • 14/Oct/2017 02:42:24

    This is a great shot, thanks for posting! Most of these old ones have ghosts in them due to slow shutters but not this one! And all of the commentary re the dates and missing head ... fabulous

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 18/Oct/2017 07:01:57

    For comparison, from Ireland in Pictures published 1898. See the extra tall lamp. It appears to be exactly the same PoV - https://www.flickr.com/photos/worldtravellib/13978297273/ (Flickr is sometimes amazing!)