Miss Grubbs wedding group
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Where: Waterford, Ireland
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When: Unknown
Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
For the lasr two years we had wagered (pardon the pun to come) that this was the wedding of Hilda Grubb to Willliam Hill on 29 July 1907, that was until we heard from cookhamish83 a great nephew of William, denying that it was him in this photo and another related photo.
As you can see from the older notes below we did have the idea that this may be the wedding of Eva Lucy Grubb, on the occassion of her marriage to Gilbert Southall on 12 April 1900 and having asked a few followere to review the work of 2 years ago we are now sure that it is the Grubb - Southall wedding.
Our thanks as always to Bernard Healy sharon.corbet derangedlemur for their help in confirming these corrections.
Older description below
I always love a good wedding photo and this is one of the best you will find. The date range of 1901 to 1954 should be narrowed very quickly and I do hold out the hope of you getting the exact day correct. I also expect the names of some of the participants to be discovered. The bride has a big job on her hands, it will be difficult to fling that beautifully arranged bouquet over her shoulder!
John Spooner, sharon.corbet and Niall McAuley found the critical location, date and subject "evidence" on this one. In short, while this could be Eva Lucy Grubb, on the occassion of her marriage to Gilbert Southall on 12 April 1900, the general consensus is that it is more likely to be a photo of the marriage of her sister Hilda Grubb in 1907. John Spooner provides details of Hilda's marriage to William Hill on 29 July 1907, paraphrasing a report from the Waterford Standard that the:
marriage between William Hill of Belmont Lodge, Waterford and Miss Hilda M Grubb, eldest daughter of Mr J H Grubb of Bruce Villa, Clonmel. The marriage was celebrated at 9 a.m. the previous Monday [29th July] at the Friends' Meeting House, Clonmel. After the wedding breakfast and reception Mr and Mrs William Hill left for Dublin and the Island of Achill, where they intended to spend some weeks.
sharon.corbet also provided confirmation that this picture was taken at the Grubb's homestead at Bruce Villa in Clonmel.....
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: Catalogue range c.1901-1954.Almost certainly either 1900 or 1907 12th April 1900
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 1101
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 23596
As you can see from the older notes below we did have the idea that this may be the wedding of Eva Lucy Grubb, on the occassion of her marriage to Gilbert Southall on 12 April 1900 and having asked a few followere to review the work of 2 years ago we are now sure that it is the Grubb - Southall wedding.
Our thanks as always to Bernard Healy sharon.corbet derangedlemur for their help in confirming these corrections.
Older description below
I always love a good wedding photo and this is one of the best you will find. The date range of 1901 to 1954 should be narrowed very quickly and I do hold out the hope of you getting the exact day correct. I also expect the names of some of the participants to be discovered. The bride has a big job on her hands, it will be difficult to fling that beautifully arranged bouquet over her shoulder!
John Spooner, sharon.corbet and Niall McAuley found the critical location, date and subject "evidence" on this one. In short, while this could be Eva Lucy Grubb, on the occassion of her marriage to Gilbert Southall on 12 April 1900, the general consensus is that it is more likely to be a photo of the marriage of her sister Hilda Grubb in 1907. John Spooner provides details of Hilda's marriage to William Hill on 29 July 1907, paraphrasing a report from the Waterford Standard that the:
marriage between William Hill of Belmont Lodge, Waterford and Miss Hilda M Grubb, eldest daughter of Mr J H Grubb of Bruce Villa, Clonmel. The marriage was celebrated at 9 a.m. the previous Monday [29th July] at the Friends' Meeting House, Clonmel. After the wedding breakfast and reception Mr and Mrs William Hill left for Dublin and the Island of Achill, where they intended to spend some weeks.
sharon.corbet also provided confirmation that this picture was taken at the Grubb's homestead at Bruce Villa in Clonmel.....
Photographer: A. H. Poole
Collection: Poole Photographic Studio, Waterford
Date: Catalogue range c.1901-1954.
NLI Ref: POOLEWP 1101
You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie
Info:
Owner: National Library of Ireland on The CommonsSource: Flickr Commons
Views: 23596
ahpoole
arthurhenripoole
glassnegative
nationallibraryofireland
wedding
missgrubb
clonmel
countytipperary
gladstonestreet
uppergladstonestreet
brucevilla
elizabethannegrubb
llewellyngrubb
williamhill
hildamarygrubb
grubb
hill
poolephotographiccollection
locationidentified
peopleidentified
dateestablished
evalucygrubb
gilbertsouthall
12april1900
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National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/la_belle_province I am thinking your "Hatoriffic" tag might be appropriate here?
Asdeewest
A happy day for all
BeachcomberAustralia
Possibly Joan Mary Grubb (1889-1968), married to Gerard Arthur O'Callaghan on 14/10/1914 ?? www.thepeerage.com/p61939.htm#i619388 She was the sister of R. R. Grubb seen here in 1937 - [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/9618237215/]
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia] I don't think so - this is apparently Captain Gerard Arthur O'Callaghan.
Niall McAuley
That looks more like a family home behind than a hotel. If it is [https://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia]' Joan Mary, here she is at home in the 1911 census, will see if I can find it.
sharon.corbet
There's another photo specifying Clonmel.
domenico milella
Congratulation for your beautiful Album.
sharon.corbet
Another possibility is William Hill and Hilda Mary Grubb on 29th July 1907.
Niall McAuley
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] Ok, not them. Only 44 female Grubbs in the 1911 census, and for a Poole photo, we can usually assume Waterford, Tipp or Kilkenny. Joan M at 21 looks the most marriageable.
Niall McAuley
next suspect, Isabel Grubb, schoolteacher - Originally from Sheskin outside Carrickbeg, probably Sheskin House.
Niall McAuley
No, not Isabel: Isabel Grubb was born in 1881. She was the daughter of Joseph Ernest Grubb and Hannah Rebecca Jacob. She died in 1972, unmarried. She was a Quaker writer and historian.
Niall McAuley
Her older sister Lydia married Olaf Hodgkin in 1905...
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] The Grubb marriage records for Ireland are available here.
abandoned railways
The bride wasnt wearing her glasses.
sharon.corbet
This is Bruce Villa in Clonmel, home of both Hilda Mary and her sister Eva Lucy who married Gilbert Southall on 12th April 1900.
Niall McAuley
There is also a Friend's Meeting House in Clonmel on the 25". (Edit: No Longer Standing). Hmm, also in Carrick.
Niall McAuley
Streetview of Bruce Villa. That is it.
Inverarra
Another great photo. N.L.I. Flickr
Inverarra
Another great photo. N.L.I. Flickr, the gift that keeps giving. Thanks.
Niall McAuley
Here are William and Hilda with new daughter Grace Evelyn in the 1911 census, in Waterford (urban).
Niall McAuley
Per the 1901 census, Upper Gladstone Street was the home of unmarried brother and sister Llewellyn and Elizabeth Anne Grubb.
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] According to the peerage they were Hilda's aunt and uncle.
John Spooner
The Waterford Standard of Saturday 3 August 1907 reported on the marriage between William Hill of Belmont Lodge, Waterford and Miss Hilda M Grubb, eldest daughter of Mr J H Grubb of Bruce Villa, Clonmel. The marriage was celebrated at 9 a.m. the previous Monday 29th July at the Friends' Meeting House, Clonmel. After the weeding breakfast and reception Mr and Mrs William Hill left for Dublin and the Island of Achill, where they intended to spend some weeks.
The report also mentions several 'Masters' and 'Misses' present at the ceremony, but too many to narrow down the supporting characters in the photo (if it is the Hill-Grubb wedding).John Spooner
There are 3 Misses mentioned in the report as being in the wedding party at the ceremony: Miss Jane Hill, Miss Grubb of Glenam and Miss Grubb of Brighton Place. The three Masters mentioned are Master Geoffrey Southall of Birmingham, Master Alfred Victor Grubb and Master Norman White.
John Spooner
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley The report also mentions (together) Mr L Grubb and Miss Grubb, Brighton Place. I assume these are Llewellyn and Elizabeth Anne. LLewellyn Grubb of Brighton Place is listed as a mourner at a funeral on 7 January 1907. Tangent: Also present was Leopold H Grubb, who elsewhere in the press was reported to have been prosecuted for refusing to have his son Edgar Leopold vaccinated.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Excellent. Well done in particular to https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet for identifying the house. I've updated the map and tags. Based on the great work from Sharon, https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner, and https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley, do we feel confident enough to update the date and description? For the wedding of William and Hilda. (I do like the alliterative nature of her married name: Hilda Hill....)
Niall McAuley
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Yes, I am sure this is Hilda, thanks to Sharon's work.
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland Whereas I'm not completely convinced - I don't really see anything that rules out her sister Eva's wedding in 1900.
Niall McAuley
It's outside the catalogue range?
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley How accurate are those ranges? Anyone good at judging ages? William Hill and Hilda were both 24ish at their wedding, while Gilbert Southall and Eva were 31 and 21 respectively.
sharon.corbet
One of William Hill's workers in 1931? https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/5896548007
Dr. Ilia
masterful shot
meadequay
Charles James Hill was the son of Anne Eliza Hanks & Samuel Hill (m1841) Enniscorthy. She aged 5 is the "little motherless daughter in William Faux's Travels in America. 1819.
cookhamish83
catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000036125 William Hill was my Great Uncle. The picture of the larger group (see link) does not contain anyone resembling William's parents or siblings. In fact the groom looks older than 24 and bears no resemblance to a picture of William Hill that I have. I can't accept this is Wiliam and Hilda's wedding.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Hi Sharon, Niall and John, I know it has been a couple of years since your deliberations on this photo, would you have a look again and consider the comments from https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] and https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] above. Thanks, Mary
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Francis and Hamish we love to hear from people with connections to our photographs for whatever reason. I have asked some of our seasoned researchers to consider your comments. Let's see what transpires as the day progresses. Regards, Mary
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] This would make me think that it is more likely to be Eva Grubb's wedding to Gilbert Southall. Unfortunately I haven't yet found any real evidence to back that up though.
Bernard Healy
The Grubb/Southall wedding features on this Geneology: www.pennyghael.org.uk/Grubb.pdf I would also imagine that Gilbert Southall may be one of the prominent Birmingham Quaker signatories to this letter: www.whitefeatherdiaries.org.uk/quakers-divided He also supported a Quaker ambulance sent to Dunkirk in 1915: archive.org/stream/b19974760M1925/b19974760M1925_djvu.txt
sharon.corbet
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Yeah, there's lots of stuff about him available. I just can't find a photo of him or his wife or someone likely to be in the wedding to try and check if this is definitely them.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Please also keep an eye on the later comments on the following photo. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/49862480917/
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It's wholly irrelevant to our photo detective work, but my own reseach interests concern John Henry Newman who spent most of his time as a Catholic priest in Edgbaston, Birmingham. In 1855, a local chemist called Southall tested the water that Newman and his community of priests were using and found that the lead pipes were contaminating their water supply. It wouldn't susprise me if we were talking about a member of the same Southall family (a generation or two earlier) given the co-incidence of profession.
sharon.corbet
Forgot to check the obvious - flickr itself! This photo has an older Gilbert Southall (second from left). Anyone like to give a view on whether he resembles the groom? (I am not great at likenesses, so have no opinion on the matter.) https://www.flickr.com/photos/1staboysbrigade/10614860445/
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet It could well be, nose,ear and mouth look right. The Lemur is good at this, I will call him in. https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet I'd say that there's more than a passing likeness there. I'm a little surprised at the existence of what seems to be a Quaker branch of the Boys' Brigade - an association that I understood to have somewhat of a military streak - but the presence of the Cadburys seems to make it clear that this is a Quaker initiative. Anyway, I could well believe that it's the same man 3 decades later - the chin and the nose seem at least consistent with the wedding photo.
sharon.corbet
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] With a bit more effort, I found a photo of his sister Geraldine's wedding to Barrow Cadbury in 1891 - so about 10 years before. (See page 50.) I think Gilbert is the man on the left.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy I am almost 100% sure you have the same man in both photos.
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet That looks like our man. I am in awe of your research skills.
sharon.corbet
As it turns out Birmingham Museum has a copy of that wedding photo that I can link to directly. Some of the other people are in the bigger group photo too. Like the man with the slightly scraggly beard, who I assume is Alfred Southall.
Bernard Healy
[https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet] The Southalls seem like a fascinating family. Gilbert's sister, for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Cadbury And this seems to be the family firm: microscopist.net/SouthallBros.html
derangedlemur
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland https://www.flickr.com/photos/scorbet Looks like him, alright. Short, same mouth, same eyes, other features in about the right place.
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland I'd say we have enough evidence now to update the description.
National Library of Ireland on The Commons
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardhealy Done, do I need to add any more?
Bernard Healy
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland That seems to be about it. Although I have a hunch that if the right researcher with an interest in British and Irish Quakers came along, we could probably identify the other parties in the picture.