The Good Ship Excel…

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Where: Cork, , Ireland

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 April 1883

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
… at least I think that's what it says on the bow of the nearest ship.

Good view of the bustle along the quays in Cork city. The Lawrence Studios have been kind to us, as Cork Exhibition inscribed on the glass plate means this one was taken circa 1902/1903.

Photographer: Almost certainly Robert French of Lawrence Photographic Studios, Dublin

Date: April 1883

NLI Ref.: L_CAB_02812

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 65435
quays cork ireland munster angleseastreet clock 443 1643 byelaws posters cranses gantries riverlee thelee ships masts excel rigging sidecars springshow cornexchange minstrels horses robertfrench williamlawrence lawrencecollection glassnegative nationallibraryofireland corkexhibition internationalexhibition corkinternationalexhibition parnellbridge swivelbridge albertquay matthewsminstrels matthewsbrothersminstrels 1883 1880s dateestablished 19thcentury

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  • profile

    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:14:14

    early film of the exhibition: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jWQtm5SVrA

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:16:13

    GoogleVanTootle - goo.gl/maps/vM7J2 . Or if you're beginning to feel a lot like Christmas - goo.gl/maps/Jif5D

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:17:45

    Curiously the Cork Examiner retrospective "Picture That" makes no mention of the 1902 exhibition but does mention the huge popularity of the 1889 exhibition

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:18:48

    Red herring - the Google van Tootles INTO the building behind - beware, it's difficult to find the way out! - goo.gl/maps/oO7Vm

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:20:56

    GeoHive OS 25" from 1899

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:23:40

    Posters for the Spring Show at the Corn Exchange.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:29:35

    And posters for Matthews Minstrels.

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    derangedlemur

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:30:05

    The good ship Excelsior, presumably. Edit: Though actually, there is a Clyde built trawler called Excel.

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    derangedlemur

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:35:38

    Now that I look at the boat, I couldn't say it's not Excel, but equally, I couldn't say it is.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:36:50

    I wonder if this is the right EXCEL, abandoned off Wicklow in November 1901? - www.plimsoll.org/resources/SCCLibraries/WreckReports/1811... Ed - "The "Excel," of Poole, official No. 74,611, was a British sailing ship, built of wood in the year 1876, by Messrs. James and John Saunders, of Hamworthy, of Poole, and was registered at the Port of Poole. She was ketch rigged with two masts. Her dimensions, as per register, were as follows: length 78.5 ft., breadth 205 ft., depth of hold 8.85 ft. Her net registered tonnage 57.77 tons; Mr. Andrew Robinson. of Annalong, County Down, being the registered managing-owner. ... "

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:37:00

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Definitely 5 letters in the word.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:44:58

    The Spring Show poster is definitely a Wednesday, and could be 24th of something.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 09:58:16

    Date coulld be April 1901 or June 1903

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 10:07:32

    No, I believe it is Wednesday 2xth April

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 10:08:27

    No help really, 23rd is 1902, 22nd is 1903

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Nov/2013 10:47:40

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Searching in all online newspapers for the Spring Show in Cork and the Matthews' Bros Minstrels but nothing so far...

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:04:03

    Hmmm, if this was after 1898, there would be tramtracks here in three directions here, as on the 1899 map: over the bridge to the left, up Anglesea Street to the right, and along the quay straight ahead.

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    derangedlemur

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:14:28

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia I found several Excel ketches but the one in the picture looks like a barque.

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    O Mac

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:20:36

    I wonder if this photograph is from 1883 and not 1902? . The evidence being, there is no tram evidence (1898) , the large lifting derrick beside Parnell Bridge-- presence suggests it was used in its construction (opened on 18 November 1882), and the fact that the 1883 Cork Exhibition was held in the Corn Exchange itself whereas the 1902 exhibition was held in the Mardike, The 1902 exhibition was known as The Cork International Exhibition.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:26:22

    I see Matthews Minstrels in the Rotunda in 1883!

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:27:36

    Matthews CCC Minstrels, if you look closely at the poster, the CCC is below Minstrels

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:38:58

    Matthews Brothers the Original C.C.C. Registered Christy Minstrels

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    O Mac

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:41:03

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] The Matthews CCC Minstrels were dissolved in May 1884 ( 5th paragraph on left)......QED so 1883.

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:44:34

    I can't help but think this is the 1889 Exhibition, the number certainly suggests this anyway

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    Niall McAuley

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:47:07

    This archive shot shows a tram at the bridge, and you can see large posts carrying overhead tram wires in front on the quay opposite. These do not appear here: this is the 1883 exhibition.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 27/Nov/2013 11:54:53

    There is another NLI "Cork Exhibition" photo to support all this 1883 talk - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000337553/Image?lookfor=http:...

  • profile

    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 12:23:43

    Photo of the opening of the 1883 Exhibition: www.corkarchives.ie/merchantcity/home/merchantprinces/cor...

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 12:25:54

    A companion Lawrence photo to our main one, this time of the hall itself: archiseek.com/2013/city-hall-cork/#.UpXkwqBONc0

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    Robinson_Luzo

    • 27/Nov/2013 12:37:27

    Another image of the 1883 exhibition: www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8296249836/

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Nov/2013 12:57:22

    Apologies. Hanging head in shame! I was led astray by Wheeeeee. Changing date now.

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    TEXASJOHN

    • 27/Nov/2013 14:08:59

    Thank you. My Mother was born in Cork on August 24 1925 and I enjoy showing her the pictures of Cork!

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    arkelly1001

    • 28/Nov/2013 01:51:17

    I Know I can Learn so much here!! ! ty for postin.. . Sincerely

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    guliolopez

    • 29/Nov/2013 15:17:44

    Well. Shucks. Another Cork one that I missed. Serves me right for having a day-job. I don't have a lot to add at this point. The subject is unequivocal (Corn Market and original Parnell/Angelsea Bridge). And it seems like the date is now spot-on too (Corroborated at 1883). The city-hall/bridge/road/quay and streetscape in the foreground has changed a lot (arson and bridge reconstruction). But the warehouses in the background are recognisable and unchanged today: The bonded warehousing of the Customs House (now CHC) in left-middle-ground, and the warehousing of the Albert Road Railway Station* in right-middle-ground. (*which seems to be linked to every Cork photo posted somehow). It isn't clear to me whether these warehouses fall under the protected status of the terminal building. But, given their age I hope they remain unchanged for yet another 150 years. The only bit of additional local "did you know" that I can offer at this point is the fact the ornate lampstands from the original swing bridge (as seen in "our" photo) weren't lost when the bridge was rebuilt. They are in the little "park" on the northside of the bridge.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 29/Nov/2013 21:13:50

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] Great stuff - glad the lamps survived, but someone pinched the peculiar stove-pipe top bit. Strikes me that the bridge has a chain across and is swung open for a ship which many of the folk are watching pass. Also someone ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] ?) might be clever enough to work out the date and/or month (springtime) from the time (16:43), lat and long (51.897244, -8.486666), and direction, length and angle of the shadows. Only as an intellectual exercise, since we are not getting very far with info about The Good Ship EXCEL.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 02/Dec/2013 07:35:08

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia Hard to tell with the angle of the shadows (about 30 - 45 degrees into the view) and the camber on the road but I think from the length and direction, June fits them better than April. It looks later than 16:43 though, especially when you allow for summer time not having been intorduced yet. I wonder if the clock is broken. Judging the depth a shadow runs into a photo is very tricky as you never know how foreshortened the image is. The only reliable way is to get a shadow along a bit of architecture and measure it against the OS 25", but that's too much trouble at this hour of the day. I'll go for June.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 02/Dec/2013 08:08:03

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I don't really understand this app, but here is the sun angle etc, set for 16:43 on 1/6/1883 - www.suncalc.net/#/51.8971,-8.4668,14/1883.06.01/16:43

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 02/Dec/2013 09:25:53

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachcomberaustralia That app shows the sun coming straight up the quay, i.e. WSW, at 16:43, whereas if you move it round to 18:00, you get the sun from due west, about 20 degrees above the horizon.

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    BeachcomberAustralia

    • 02/Dec/2013 21:22:09

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] It's complicated ... !

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 03/Dec/2013 07:11:59

    If we assume the clock is wrong, it looks like any day in June at between quarter past five and quarter to six. I'm pretty sure it's not earlier than late May or later than early July. This would seem to confirm http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] and http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley in their view of it being 1883.

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    O Mac

    • 03/Dec/2013 07:33:08

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected] I think the photograph was taken before the Exhibition which opened in early July. Two and a half reasons. There are posters for the Spring Show which in previous years was held in May. Any later than May Mr.Bill Poster would have been busy!! There are no flags or bunting to be seen yet contemporary illustration show the place festooned with them.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 03/Dec/2013 08:46:32

    in 1883, the Spring Show poster must read Wednesday 25th April. Unless Bill Stickers was very idle, those posters would surely have been covered by June.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 03/Dec/2013 08:47:54

    The text above the Minstrels poster is headed THE ----- ----- CORK. I think it may say THE OPERA HOUSE CORK. The Opera House opened in 1855.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 03/Dec/2013 08:51:48

    An Irish Times archive search for CORK OPERA MINSTREL gives three hits in April 1883: 16th, 17th and 20th, all on Page 2.

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    Niall McAuley

    • 03/Dec/2013 09:01:56

    According to the Opera House website, it was not called the Opera House until 1877, but still in time for this photo :)

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    derangedlemur

    • 03/Dec/2013 09:09:43

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley While you could have got the sun round far enough to get the shadow direction shown in at six o'clock mid April, it would only have been ten degrees above the horizon. I think the shadows are too short for that.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 03/Dec/2013 09:23:15

    Delighted to see the respect ye all have for the industrious Bill Posters and Bill Stickers! Those two don't get half the appreciation they should.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 03/Dec/2013 09:34:43

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley Huzzah! From Niall's alert, I checked the Irish Times digital archive and... Wednesday, 11 April 1883 Matthews' C.C.C. Minstrels were in the Round Room at the Rotunda in Dublin for 10 nights around the middle of April (you could order carriages to pick you up at 10) Tuesday, 17 April 1883 Matthews' C.C.C. Minstrels still at the Round Room in Dublin BUT "Must Close Saturday Next" partly because "NEXT MONDAY" (23rd April 1883) the Matthews' C.C.C. Minstrels were off to the Opera House at Cork for one week!!

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 15/Oct/2016 07:54:41

    I have just added this photo to our 50,000+ Views Album. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/sets/72157651136879037