Thrashing / Threshing

Download this image

More from this collection

Support Pastpin!

Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 27 September 1923

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
This is an intriguing little one! We've been at Gracedieu in Co. Waterford before (or Gracediew, as it's sometimes spelled), but never accompanied by an armed guard. The Irish Civil War was "over" for nearly 4 months before this photo was taken, so why the need for Free State soldiers?

P.S. A Mr Kierney ordered/paid for this photograph.

Photographer: Poole Photographic Studios, Waterford

Date: Thursday, 27 September 1923

NLI Ref: POOLEWP 3123

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 52552
gracedieu gracediew waterford ireland munster thrashing threshing thresher farming hay freestatesoldiers soldiers uniforms guns rifles bayonets rake pitchfork dogs smoking workers labourers barn ricks caps steam thursday 27th september 1923 1920s twenties 20thcentury ahpoole arthurhenripoole glassnegative nationallibraryofireland irishfarmersunion itgwu specialinfantrycorps strike farmlabourer leeenfieldrifle richardhornsby steampower poolephotographiccollection

Add Tags
  • profile

    mogey

    • 16/Sep/2013 07:55:50

    Strange grouping. It looks like the soldiers are protecting the harvesting. The man with the dog looks like the landowner (plus fours etc). Were they threatened?

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 16/Sep/2013 07:58:37

    Like

  • profile

    Cuddly Nutter

    • 16/Sep/2013 08:05:43

    Could the date be wrong?

  • profile

    Inverarra

    • 16/Sep/2013 08:06:32

    As you seem to imply, it's hard to say when the civil war was "over" . Really great photo. Thanks.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Sep/2013 08:13:20

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/mogey] Well, that's the question, isn't it? Big house, politicial allegiances, local issues?

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Sep/2013 08:14:42

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanekillen] Always a possibility, but other negative numbers either side of this one (for which we have dates) lead up to/head on after September 1923.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 08:50:04

    According to www.thepeerage.com/p26175.htm, the Andersons were still living in Grace Dieu at this time. (Indeed, it says As of 1976, John Peter Jocelyn Anderson lived at Grace Dieu, Clogheen, County Waterford, Ireland.).

  • profile

    blackpoolbeach

    • 16/Sep/2013 09:25:13

    Single cylinder steam traction engine with an overhanging coal bunker. It could be a Burrell or a Fowler. Not sure about this. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_traction_engine_manufacturers

  • profile
  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:02:59

    There are two Grace Dieus in Waterford. One is the house where Miss Anderson lived. The other is West of the city, by the river. The NUIG landed estates database says that a Mr. Kearney was leasing the second one from the Andersons and in 1911 William Kearney is farming there. His son Arthur would be 30 in 1923, so that could be him in Plus Fours.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:09:38

    27th September strikes me as somewhat late to be harvesting and threshing (but I'm hardly an expert, and I'm ready to be corrected)

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:12:02

    Cottages of Labourers burnt Wednesday 12 September 1923 Armed men in motor cars are terrorizing the Waterford district by burning the cottages of laborers.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:24:43

    I'd have said both the threshing machine and the engine looked like Marshalls. Fowlers all have the cylinder much closer to the smokebox.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:44:38

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I do hope they are Marshalls. I was born about a quarter of a mile from Marshalls' factory.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:51:14

    Irish Times, Friday 21st September 1923 - Page 6 Threatening Notices to Farmers

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:54:05

    IT, Tuesday 11th September - Page 6 Cottages Set on Fire

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:55:54

    Weekly IT, Saturday 15th September, Page 2 Havoc by Armed Gang Five Labourers' Homes Burnt Down

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 16/Sep/2013 10:58:51

    This may have been related to strikes and 'bolshevism' rather than the civil war...

  • profile

    ccferrie

    • 16/Sep/2013 11:38:45

    Seems a bit reckless to have a hot steam engine so close to a full haybarn

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 16/Sep/2013 12:19:15

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Niall, you're spot on! From The Munster Express of Saturday, 22 September 1923:

    WATERFORD AND THE STRIKE Directly and indirectly, about 3,000 are unemployed in Waterford due to the agricultural labourers' strike in East Waterford and the dockers' strike in Waterford City. Owing to a further cut in wages, a strike may occur in the Waterford building trade next week.
    And from the day before, Friday 21st September, 1923 in the Irish Times:
    THREATENING NOTICES TO FARMERS The following typewritten notices have been received by County Waterford farmers: "Proclamation - Whereas one of our leaders, Organiser James Baird, has been arrested and is held in military custody without any charge being preferred against him, other than the fact that he urged the workers to defend their rights and refuse to be treated as slaves: "Now we, the army of the Workers' Republic, sealed by the blood of our dead here, James Connolly, warn the farmers in the strike area that unless our comrade James Baird is released within the next six days we will order the arrest and execution of twelve farmers in the area mentioned. - By order O.C. Dated 17th September, 1923" The matter is being closely investigated by the local police authorities.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 16/Sep/2013 12:27:47

    The back wheels on the engine are a bit weird. They only have three rivets holding each spoke instead of the usual four and the spokes are straight instead of flaring before the wheel rim. Google and flickr aren't providing any pictures that match these wheels. Do they rust through too easily so no restored engines have them?

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 16/Sep/2013 12:58:31

    The farm workers strike lasted from May 17 to December 8 1923, There is some more on it in this blog robertnielsen21.wordpress.com/2012/10/10/the-other-civil-...

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Sep/2013 15:40:45

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach] I was at an agricultural show locally a few months back and there was a demonstration of threshing using a very similar looking engine. It was a Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies. I'll throw up a few photos later. Comparing some of the details of this one and my photos, they are very similar. But I've not seen many traction engines, so it could just be similarities between them all!

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 16/Sep/2013 16:04:34

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz] There was one at Stradbally this year but the platform at the top was much smaller. I think it was a Ransome.

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 16/Sep/2013 16:53:13

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I'll get some pictures up later and you can tell me if it's the same one. I think the one I saw is very similar to this one.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 16/Sep/2013 17:32:25

    I thought I had a picture but it turns out I don't.

  • profile

    TEXASJOHN

    • 16/Sep/2013 18:13:18

    They soldiers may have been on maneuvers nearby? As for Thrashing and threshing both words could be used. Thrashing means beat vigorously. Threshing means separate from husk. So you thrash to thresh!

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 16/Sep/2013 18:49:38

    The soldiers are almost certainly members of the Irish Army's special infantry corps which was formed to deal with striking farm workers and to protect the farmers interests.

  • profile

    mogey

    • 16/Sep/2013 18:51:55

    Great detective work today!

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 16/Sep/2013 19:12:20

    The engine's similar in some details to this one (from north Waterford) but mostly different. This one looks like a cut and shut, so it wouldn't surprise me if the back end is from the one above. Stradbally 2013

  • profile

    Ray Mallon1

    • 16/Sep/2013 20:07:08

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner] [http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner] September is maybe a little early if anything

  • profile

    blackpoolbeach

    • 16/Sep/2013 22:02:55

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] The front wheels are even more weird. They have no rivets at all. [http://www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz] There are design similarities with the Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies engine. The Gracedieu coal bunker looks right but the cylinder is smaller and further back on the boiler. On the other hand the steering is on the far side and the reversing quadrant is on this side. I have been through these websites - Steam Up and Steam Scenes.

  • profile

    waykwabu

    • 17/Sep/2013 05:44:29

    Gosh, if it wasn't for the army uniforms I almost have said it was a scene from 19th cent. Australia !! (The army guys would have been tossed into the nearest yabby dam !! )

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 17/Sep/2013 06:11:48

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach] Good point. I saw wheels like that somewhere, but where?

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 17/Sep/2013 07:36:22

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] The logo on that looks like the Ransomes, Sims and jefferies logo - www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz/9777896691 I think there are similarities... www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz/9778117096 www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz/9778136686

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 17/Sep/2013 07:42:16

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz] Yeah. Your second picture, like my own picture, is quite like the top picture but with a few crucial differences. The cylinder is in the wrong place, smokestack is wrong, wheels again (though I think all restored engines must just have new wheels and they all get them from the same place). The only three rivet wheels and front-hinged undecorated smokestacks I've found are Fodens, but I couldn't find one that matched the picture either.

  • profile

    Robinson_Luzo

    • 17/Sep/2013 10:53:30

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] The main danger was from sparks coming from the chimney, usually these engines had a special mesh at the base of the funnel that stopped this

  • profile

    Robinson_Luzo

    • 17/Sep/2013 10:56:23

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] If I recall correctly there were similar scenes during the widespread strikes in Limerick in 1919. Fear of sovietism was high as it was seen as promoting godlessness, something the politicians of the Free State encouraged by using it to attack each other

  • profile

    sons of d.h. hill

    • 17/Sep/2013 17:38:47

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Note also the multiple cigarettes. Maybe they were careful and everything was pretty damp.

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 17/Sep/2013 19:22:44

    Similarities and differences with a Marshall General Purpose Traction Engine from one of their sales brochures.

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 17/Sep/2013 22:09:45

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Ireland in September is pretty damp!

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 18/Sep/2013 06:17:51

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnspooner] It seems they all have a lot of similarities. Distinguishing features for a traction engine appear to include things like: Smokestack hinge - front or back Smokestack decoration Position and number of brass hoops around the boiler and to a lesser extent: Position of the cylinder on the boiler Postion of the pipe from smokestack to the cylinder Flywheel and wheels are all replaceable, so I don't know how much use they are. The bunker and fire-box seem to be common to vast numbers of designs. Also the various hoops and rollers. Valve gear is common across lots of designs too. But there's a huge amount of variation from each manufacturer - there seem to be thousands of different designs from the UK alone, and most of them from pretty small runs (as few as 8) so unless we find a picture of this actual engine I doubt we'll identify the manufacturer.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 18/Sep/2013 07:01:46

    What it looks most like is the front end of a Wallis Steevens and the back end of either a Marshall or a Ransomes et al.

  • profile

    Hedd Jones

    • 18/Sep/2013 19:17:47

    The engine is by Richard Hornsby.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 19/Sep/2013 06:46:37

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Right first try. Nice job. images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110101225737/tractors/im...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 19/Sep/2013 07:58:26

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Thank you very much!

  • profile

    lopeslmn

    • 19/Sep/2013 19:29:23

    lindo e emocionante.

  • profile

    Hedd Jones

    • 19/Sep/2013 19:50:32

    No problem. Any more traction engine/steam roller pics etc to share?

  • profile

    John Spooner

    • 19/Sep/2013 19:54:21

    Not a Marshall, then, but from the same county.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 20/Sep/2013 09:43:49

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Will keep a weather eye out for engine pics that might be of interest to you! Thanks for all the identification help...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 04/Dec/2016 10:07:19

    I have just added this photo to our 50,000+ Views Album. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/sets/72157651136879037]