Horse-drawn tram, Patrick Street, Cork

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Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1870

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
Today we have the battle of the horse-drawn tram versus omnibus photos. It's Cork (the real capital of Ireland?) versus Dublin (the real capital of Ireland!).

Which is the best image? That might be a little subjective, so perhaps which can we find out the most about?

Date: 1864-1875

NLI Ref: STP_1805

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 42022
patrickstreet cork ireland munster pana stpatrickshill gaslighting carts carriages collardcollard collard williamwheeler pianos pianofortewarehouse quays sidecars trams horsedrawntrams horses children royalbilliardrooms awnings stereoscopiccollection stereopairs stereographicnegatives stereoscope jamessimonton frederickhollandmares johnlawrence lawrencecollection 19thcentury knifeboard omnibus pianofortes clementico nationallibraryofireland

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  • profile

    Leonard Bentley

    • 10/Jun/2013 08:32:17

    Hi, Very interesting to see the 'knifeboard' arrangement for top deck passengers on the trams in both photographs. This arrangement was superceded by the 'Garden Seat' configuration where passengers face forward as in modern day buses etc. I think the change was gradual starting in the late 1870s early 1880s.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 08:42:53

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Thank you so much! Hadn't heard that term before, but will use it as a tag in future, or Garden Seat where applicable. This says that the term was first used in Punch on 15 May 1862...

  • profile

    blackpoolbeach

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:00:36

    The rails seem to very wide apart compared with the later electric trams.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:09:45

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpoolbeach] Much wider! Do you remember this one of the woman dashing across the street at almost exactly the same spot on Patrick Street?

  • profile

    eyelightfilms

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:10:59

    If only they could bring these street lamps back, to replace the current, building site inspired monstrosities.

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    eyelightfilms

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:11:44

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Indeed I do. First thing I thought of when I saw this one.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:12:07

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/eyelightfilms] They were lovely alright!

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:21:53

    " The Flying Snail" gave a good account of Cork horse drawn trams.That picture was dated August 1874.[http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/8455666538/sizes/o/in/photostream/]

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 10/Jun/2013 09:49:11

    The Father Mathew statue was cast in London in the foundry of Mr Prince, Union Street, Southwark. It was placed on a stone pedestal designed by W. Atkins of Cork. The unveiling of the statue took place on 10 October 1864 amid scenes of great rejoicing. ‘The Statue’ has held a special place in the affections of Corkonians ever since — as demonstrated during 2000 when a proposal to move the statue to a new site near Winthrop Street was abandoned following protests from the people of Cork. So post October 1864 - the Statue does look newish so not long post...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 10:07:03

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I do think this one is later than the Dublin one - 1870s rather than 1860s. So it's "just" a case of finding other evidence that can narrow it down...

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  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 10/Jun/2013 10:16:07

    The horse trams only operated in Cork from 1872 to 75. It used the standard Railway gauge of 5'3"

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 10:19:57

    Re Father Mathew statue, this may help - in this image there are railings in situ around the base. Found this great (and probably quite early Lawrence shot without railings...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 10/Jun/2013 10:21:20

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] Narrowed to 1875 as upper limit then, thank you.

  • profile

    BearaBoy

    • 13/Jun/2013 13:00:15

    Here's some info on Collard and Collard - you can see their 'Pianoforte Warehouse' in the distance (behind Father Mathew) located on St Patrick's Quay: Collard & Collard The illustrious Collard & Collard Piano Company was originally established as 'Longman & Broderip' in 1767. Longman & Broderip was a music publishing house, but the firm also built a number of pianos and organs. The first listing for Longman & Broderip was at 26 Cheapside, London, later at 15 Haymarket, London. The famous composer and piano virtuoso, Muzio Clementi (whose music was published by Longman & Broderip) invested heavily in the firm, ultimately creating an association with F. W. and W. P. Collard under the name of 'Clementi & Company'. Because of Clementi's fame and fortune, the firm was very successful and grew at a rapid pace. F. W. Collard was also a mechanical genius, and he was awarded several patents for piano design and construction, and instruments by the firm were a sensation across Europe. Muzio Clementi retired by 1815 and the name of the firm was changed to 'Collard & Collard'. During the middle 19th Century, the firm was managed by Charles Lukey Collard, and he continued to move the firm to the forefront of piano manufacturing in Europe, making Collard & Collard one of the most popular and successful European piano manufacturers of all time. In 1929, the firm was sold to the Chappell Piano Company of London, and the Collard & Collard name was produced until about 1960.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 13/Jun/2013 13:14:40

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Excellent, thank you! I found all of these Collard/Clementi/Cheapside music scores in our collections... P.S. Don't want to stereotype you as only being interested in Cork photos, but I upcycled this one of Pana to a higher res version this morning - you might like it...

  • profile

    myheadismyonlyhouse

    • 23/May/2015 21:19:24

    rather late to the party on this one. but if you look along the street on the right, there is a sign attached to the fourth gaslamp pole down. the message on it looks very like so: ROYAL ITALIAN OPERA ------------- ? ------------- ? -------------- ? DUBLIN

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 24/May/2015 18:59:27

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Your eyes are better than mine, but I think one of the words above the bottom (DUBLIN, if that's what it is) could be CORK

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 24/May/2015 20:20:42

    And a press search shows the Royal Italian Opera was touring in Britain and Ireland in the early 1870s.

  • profile

    myheadismyonlyhouse

    • 15/Apr/2017 20:34:05

    Italian Opera company opened in Dublin on Monday Sept. 30th 1872 on a three week run. They played Cork before Dublin according to that poster. The horse drawn trams began running on 12th Sept. 1872. So a three week window between Sept 12 and Sept. 30 1872 for the date of the photo .