R.I.C. and military leaving Limerick

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Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1920

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
R.I.C. military and armoured car leaving Limerick on a scouting expedition

So many maps but no definitive location as of yet - can you help?

Thanks to Dr O Mac for identifying the vehicles as, two Crossley Tenders, One c1915 DAIMLER 30HP Y-TYPE 3-TON LORRY and one Austin Armoured car.

Interesting times indeed as can be seen from the following contribution from Carol Maddock "Any Irishman who joins the service of the enemy in the R.I.C. at the present time must be regarded and dealt with as the worst type of traitor. We have no desire to be harsh to those who in older and more peaceful time joined through ignorance, not understanding what they did, and who, in these days, have shown no special malevolence in the work they are compelled to do against the Irish Republic; but there is no excuse for the Irishman who dons the uniform of the enemy for active service against his countrymen at the present time."

(from p. 4 of An t-Óglách: The Official Organ of the Irish Volunteers, 15 April 1920)

Photographer: W. D. Hogan

Collection: Hogan-Wilson Collection

Date: ca.1920

NLI Ref.: HOG147

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 21059
hoganwilsoncollection wdhogan nationallibraryofirelandricmilitarylimerickarmouredcartruckuniformsplainclothes crossleytender daimler30hp daimler3ton austinarmouredcar daimlertruck limerick colimerick munster ireland ric royalirishconstabulary traitors blackandtans regulars rifles tinhats greatcoats scoutingexpedition ik2737 ik2690

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  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 09/Jun/2015 07:27:14

    IK 1 to IK 9999 (Dec 1903 – Mar 1927) Dublin County Council

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    swordscookie back and trying to catch up!

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:03:09

    Obviously Limerick had changed a great deal by the time I was growing up in the late '40's and '50's so it is hard to put a location on a road with so little distinguishing features. From my memory this reminds me of the main road out through Corbally towards Co. Clare. This is where I think it is and is near the famous rugby academy "St. Munchins College". The Clare Brigade of the IRA were very active about this time and the area to the north of here was a stronghold of their operations!

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    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:07:44

    Probably tough enough to locate this one. All the candidates on the OSI are main roads which have been widened since, so all the distinguishing features are gone.

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    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:09:30

    Having said that, there's a not dissimilar bit of wall on the R463: www.google.ie/maps/@52.687788,-8.604284,3a,75y,227.18h,90...

  • profile

    swordscookie back and trying to catch up!

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:17:00

    That is on the same road as I was suggesting above Lemur and I think we are probably both right as to the road but the exact spot is a lottery! I remember that the stone wall seemed to go on for miles along there and was connected with the bridge across the Shannon nearby!

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    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:22:54

    The R445 would also be possible if they came from Caherdavin barracks and the wall had got a new top on it since then: www.google.ie/maps/@52.673517,-8.671704,3a,75y,108.49h,69....

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    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:46:36

    Histogram equalisation reveals that there's a gable visible in the background, just above the chap in the armoured car. Maybe that'll help.

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 08:50:09

    It's hard to tell what the tree is - might be a maple, or a sycamore.

  • profile

    Niall McAuley

    • 09/Jun/2015 10:22:35

    Google Tree view?

  • profile

    swordscookie back and trying to catch up!

    • 09/Jun/2015 11:53:47

    We could do with Bill35H or Blackpool Beach here now to identify the trucks and armoured car!

  • profile

    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 12:57:49

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/gnmcauley] If it was that tree you'd see the house in the picture: maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,558369,658370,11,9

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    derangedlemur

    • 09/Jun/2015 13:16:28

    I don't think it can be the R463 because the sun is coming from the right, and you would expect a recce excursion to be leaving in the morning, so that means they must be headed somewhere between south-east and west, depending on the time of day.

  • profile

    Carol Maddock

    • 09/Jun/2015 13:42:06

    It's interesting to see the jaunty, cheery faces smiling for our Mr Hogan. If this was taken circa 1920, then this was the reality for R.I.C. men...

    Any Irishman who joins the service of the enemy in the R.I.C. at the present time must be regarded and dealt with as the worst type of traitor. We have no desire to be harsh to those who in older and more peaceful time joined through ignorance, not understanding what they did, and who, in these days, have shown no special malevolence in the work they are compelled to do against the Irish Republic; but there is no excuse for the Irishman who dons the uniform of the enemy for active service against his countrymen at the present time.
    (from p. 4 of An t-Óglách: The Official Organ of the Irish Volunteers, 15 April 1920)

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 09/Jun/2015 14:40:24

    Not exactly a friendly-looking bunch. It seems like it was a cold day too.

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 09/Jun/2015 14:52:02

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/sam2cents] The police who are up front wearing the forage caps look friendly enough. By the looks of them they were "regular" RIC officers and not the notorious "Black and Tans". What is not too evident is that most, if not all, of them have rifles in their hands. This was a serious mission and the risks were considerable. There is no protection at the sides of those trucks and any ambush would by its nature be unexpected with a burst of firing and probably Mills Bombs thrown at them. There was no ballistic armour in those days so the raincoats offered no protection except from water pistols! [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Only too true Carol, a Sergeant was shot dead just around the corner from my Grandparents shop near the O'Curry Street station!

  • profile

    O Mac

    • 09/Jun/2015 16:51:11

    Two Crossley Tenders One c1915 DAIMLER 30HP Y-TYPE 3-TON LORRY One Austin Armoured car and a bag of chips. :) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Armoured_Car www.flickr.com/photos/imagetaker1/15349669610/ www.flickr.com/photos/appleman64/12848774835/in/photolist... www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6719164829/in/photolist-

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    Ray Mallon1

    • 09/Jun/2015 17:15:10

    the covered trucks seem to have soldiers on board i dont think the British army adopted the metal helmets untill during WW1 so that would date this after 1918

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 09/Jun/2015 18:52:54

    It is just possible that the shot was taken on the Ballinacurra Road on the west side of the city. It would be virtually impossible to identify it conclusively now as it has been developed continuously since the 1920's and is now unrecognisable! When I was growing up there was a similar wall along this stretch and before the Childers Road extension was built! This is the Streetview of what remains though the ground may be lower on this stretch?

  • profile

    Reconstructing Light

    • 09/Jun/2015 20:52:19

    Amazing load. Keystone Cops springs to mind.....

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 10/Jun/2015 06:03:44

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] There's a (fairly oblique) reference to the photo here where they refer to the armoured car as a Peerless. (Apparently "based on the chassis of the Peerless three ton lorry, with an armoured body built by the Austin Motor Company".)

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 10/Jun/2015 06:16:52

    I was trying to see if I could find any likely ID for any of the men. While I was unsuccessful, I did find the following which I thought was worth a mention: John Basil Jarvis: Jarvis was stationed at the Strand Barracks from where he directed the regiments intelligence work in counties Clare, Limerick and Tipperary. Jarvis seems to have been a somewhat eccentric character, his intelligence dossier is prefaced with sea shanty that would not be out of place in the book “Treasure Island” and he lists himself amongst the I.R.A. suspects in his intelligence dossier as “JARVIS, John Basil, Strand Barrack’s Limerick ‘a great ruffian capable of doing anybody or anything, rides an antiquated Douglas motor cycle.’ " Also, an unnamed British officer (who may be Jarvis): John M Regan an R.I.C. District Inspector in Limerick, remembered British officers travelling the countryside in civilian clothes on intelligence missions: “Secret Service agents recalls to mind an army officer in Limerick. He spoke with what was termed an Oxford accent, always calling a Sinn Feiner (pronounced Shin Faner) a ‘Sin Finer’. He took it into his head to disguise himself as an IRA man and go off into the hills in another county. He could not be dissuaded from going. Finally he started off bringing with him two carrier pigeons, and we bade him farewell not expecting to see him again alive. We were wrong. After a couple of days one of the pigeons returned with the important message, ‘Still going strong. Have eaten the other.’ Strange to say, he did return alive.”

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    nannyjean35

    • 14/Jun/2015 17:28:45

    very interesting