Hogan photographs of Generals with one unknown

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Where: Unknown

Try to find the spot where the photographer was standing.

When: 01 January 1922

Try to find the date or year when this image was made.
URGENT REQUEST from our researchers in the Library - IDENTIFY the Generals in this Photograph

We are fairly confident that the identification, left to right, goes:

Eoin O’Duffy, Unknown, Michael Brennan, Fionán Lynch, WRE Murphy, and it’s the Unknown we’d like to track down.

There was a lot of interest in this photo, with lots of comments, corrections and questions. In the heel of the hunt the combined wisdom of the NLI flickr community suggests that in all probability the unknown is:

BARRA O'BRIAIN

His image is not very well represented on the net. The suggestion is that you have a look at the non digitised photo - catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000604381 and let us know your views at that point.


Photographer: W. D. Hogan

Collection: Hogan-Wilson Collection ,

Date: Circa 1922

NLI Ref.: HOG128

You can also view this image, and many thousands of others, on the NLI’s catalogue at catalogue.nli.ie

Info:

Owner: National Library of Ireland on The Commons
Source: Flickr Commons
Views: 21920
hoganwilsoncollection wdhogan nationallibraryofireland ireland irishcivilwar 1922 eoino’duffy michaelbrennan fionánlynch wremurphy

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  • profile

    Neowinger

    • 27/Feb/2015 10:20:48

    The photo of you is taken really class, my respect. You have made this really great, such photos speak one clear language. Congratulation. Pictures to some expressions.

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    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 10:32:47

    If Eoin O Duffy was not already named I would have guessed Risteard Mulcahy - they are very alike? [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16661488445/] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16661533855/] EDIT - It seems that the picture I used above as Mulcahy is in fact General Eoin O'Duffy see (The one I used was incorrectly listed as Mulcahy) - [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3358224149/] from [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]]

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    Bwana_Samaki

    • 27/Feb/2015 10:43:42

    It is always interesting to note that when a new military or paramilitary organisation is formed how there are so many generals and brigadiers. Usually out of all proportion to the size of the organisation.

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    derangedlemur

    • 27/Feb/2015 10:47:12

    www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/ See The Revolt of the Prunes. books.google.ie/books?id=sfGNQUziQrAC&pg=PT133&lp...

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 11:33:27

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I would agree. The nose and ears make him very recognisable..!!! Doppelgangers.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 11:40:56

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I am not convinced (but, what you say is interesting), O'Duffy has the ears too? Keep at it. Mary

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    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 11:41:49

    Does the shirt and tie make the unknown more senior?

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 11:50:57

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Please see the photo here and let me know what you think?

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 11:55:02

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] I have been spending the last wee while browsing other images of O'Duffy ... I am sure he is correctly identified. Mulcahy's face is longer.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 27/Feb/2015 12:01:26

    There's a second photo taken off the same guys but some of their expressions are different.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 12:02:05

    This might help Wistorical's Page on Facebook

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    abriony

    • 27/Feb/2015 12:19:39

    I see a few of them really wear their pistol holsters low on the thigh instead of on the belt.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 13:19:55

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6149096869/in/photolist-67KM3n-7L3Fvo-bw94a3-mbC13M-annJgx-9XK2rY-7tb6sq-83aXd6-bPuQbH-4Wncxv-ceGvxd-6mF9RC-bAAbCA-bAAbGU-bAAbE9-bPuQgV-7MTrjR-9bwSrz-mJcvAe-qKwDS5-9cSX4p-e3qcGE-nkR7hU-9ScHCX-aanxix-aEeQAx-bPuXFg-bPuQ4r-8JgteT-9FjHtb-b263NF-cuStp-9bzYLA-bSfQmc-7L3QPo-7L3Fiy-bGg1K8-7ZCk11-9bwSia-bAAbAJ-7KYT5n-5yHBAk-83aXNg-9bzYHE-asFtX2-asJ1UN-9y29cU-7t7864-7t72kH-911SQ9] This is Mulcahy from this stream.

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 14:06:12

    The nose is straighter.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 27/Feb/2015 14:21:33

    Another photo of Mulcahy in civilian clothes General Richard Mulcahy

  • profile

    Joefuz

    • 27/Feb/2015 14:37:08

    As pointed out by others, the man in the middle is wearing a different uniform to the others. Shirt and tie visible, jodhpurs and puttees. Is he perhaps with a different branch of the military?

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 27/Feb/2015 14:50:18

    The officer with the different uniform is more than likely a staff officer from GHQ.

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 17:49:59

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/joefuz] A lot depended on the tailor used by the officer concerned and the pattern he was working from! If you follow O'Duffy's and WRE Murphy's careers and the photos taken at different stages you will almost always see them with the closed/stock collar whereas if you see photos of Coogan their contemporary and father of Tim Pat he is almost always in collar and tie!

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 17:59:27

    How about Bearra O'Brien for the unidentified man??? See digital.ucd.ie/view/ucdlib:30763

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 18:24:18

    Doing a bit of research and found this in the UCD Digital Archive! [digital.ucd.ie/view-media/ucdlib:30737]

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 18:53:52

    [http://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Thank you for answering the uniform question!

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 19:10:12

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] I tried hunting for him and the only image I have found is the same one at UCD with the people identified as "possibly". digital.ucd.ie/view/ucdlib:30763

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 27/Feb/2015 19:13:57

    The Unknown is not unlike Emmett Dalton in appearance. Fascinating how the second from the right (Lynch) is looking ready to draw and shoot. He looks uneasy. Also, I've never seen a photo of Commandant General Prout and wonder if this Unknown could possibly be him.

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 27/Feb/2015 21:01:15

    John T Prout is in this photo taken at the Gaol in Ballybricken, Waterford. He is seated third from left, (man with moustache) catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000593608/Image?lookfor=http:...

  • profile

    sam2cents

    • 27/Feb/2015 21:17:27

    Thanks for the info, and the link. I'll check that out.

  • profile

    Vab2009

    • 27/Feb/2015 21:37:49

    Looking at this image and the one that [http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] suggests... I can't add anything but there is something about the body language of the three central characters that makes me think unknown is junior in rank. The putees add to that feel. It seems like the other two are visiting/have been inspecting a unit. Lol...most unresearched comment you have ever had :-)

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 22:12:22

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/sam2cents] I am not convinced about Dalton. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16458832657/]

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 22:44:19

    In the 1922 Military Census there is a Barra O'Briain of 29 Merrion Square, Dublin holding the rank of "Staff Captain" This might explain why the name does not feature in any other circumstances? census.militaryarchives.ie/pdf/Fermoy_Western_Division_So...

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 22:47:18

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009] Viv, That link to the UCD Photo is interesting, the photo is the same as this one for sure and they do name all the others correctly. I see it is part of the Desmond Fitzgerald Collection, if the probable names came directly from him I would give that some weight. The Caption reads " Photograph by W.D. Hogan of a group of Irish Free State Army officers and men standing beside a personnel carrier; the group is standing at ease, relaxed and smiling; the officers possibly include Eoin O'Duffy, Michael Brennan, Bearra O'Brien, Fionán Lynch, and W. R. E. Murphy" This Photo has our Unidentified Man and the caption reads: Irish Free State Army officers leaving a building, including Michael Brennan and Barra O'Brien

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 27/Feb/2015 22:57:22

    A commandant Barra O'Briain is mentioned in this account of the handover of the Curragh www.curragh.info/articles/handover.htm There is mention of a Colonel B. O'Briain on page 4 of the August 11 1923 issue of An tOglach where he appears in a photo but unfortunately his face is hidden behind another officer antoglach.militaryarchives.ie/PDF/1923_08_11_Vol_1_No_13_...

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Feb/2015 22:58:19

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Sorry Danny but your link leads us back to our own photograph! If you look at my link above identifying the UCD archive you will see the shot you write of, digital.ucd.ie/view-media/ucdlib:30737 Mary (eile)

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 23:18:56

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Mary - Link is Fixed

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 27/Feb/2015 23:27:00

    There's a non-digitised photo of Justice O'Briain available. But it's from 1962 though.

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 23:31:22

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland] Mary, I bet you could get the photo Sharon refers to Digitised? so we can all have a look!!!

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 27/Feb/2015 23:36:32

    1960 photo including Justice Barra O Briain while on secondment to Cyprus.

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 27/Feb/2015 23:56:43

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Sharon, what do you think. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16481564620/] Justice Barra O'Briain v Unknown??

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 28/Feb/2015 00:04:15

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/] I think the tall man with the sun glasses in Sharons link is Justice O'Briain.

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    sharon.corbet

    • 28/Feb/2015 00:04:55

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Unfortunately, I think that may be Vice President Kuchuk instead.

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 28/Feb/2015 03:20:31

    Captain Haylet of the Garda? Seems to have the same goofy smile... www.generalmichaelcollins.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/...

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 28/Feb/2015 06:44:10

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] That was funny - Updated now,

  • profile

    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 28/Feb/2015 07:19:14

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/vab2009] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/sam2cents] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] [https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrlinux71] A summary of where we are with this search would be most welcome at this point.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 28/Feb/2015 18:16:14

    I found a larger, clearer photo of Barra O Briain, but even later (1977) and with a watermark from RTE.

  • profile

    silverio10

    • 01/Mar/2015 19:49:44

    Muy buena serie de fotografias históricas . Greetings from Valencia , Spain .

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 02/Mar/2015 02:57:41

    In Summary: Sharon Corbet, Barra O'Briain, Emmett Dalton or a Captain Haylet (Garda officer)

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 02/Mar/2015 03:11:10

    Does Unknown have a scabbard down his left leg? I also see his pistol seems to have a long string going over his left shoulder. An officer type? I can't see a lower rank having a saber in the 1920s...

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 02/Mar/2015 03:46:58

    I'm calling him Bearra O'Brien. Here: www.dublinforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10610&page=43 and digital.ucd.ie/view/ucdlib:30763 label him as such (the second link is of the same photo from University College Dublin)

  • profile

    DannyM8

    • 02/Mar/2015 06:46:13

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]] Brian as good as Sharon is I do not think she is in the photo!! I think that we can safely say that the known's are correctly identified. [https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/16503843968/] I agree with you that the unknown is in all probability Barra O'Brian.

  • profile

    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 03/Mar/2015 01:10:58

    haha, oops. Too many comments here, hard to keep track. So did we win the prize?

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    oaktree_brian_1976

    • 05/Mar/2015 03:10:53

    Web seems to indicate he was a judge. Who's the regulatory body for judges in Ireland? Law society or something... I imagine they might have a record/photo of him.

  • profile

    sharon.corbet

    • 05/Mar/2015 15:11:55

    The one quibble I would have about Barra O'Briain as the Unknown is that he was only 21 in 1922 and the Unknown looks older than that to me. (Though I am dreadful at telling ages of people.)

  • profile

    ofarrl

    • 05/Mar/2015 16:45:09

    Difficult to tell the ages from these old photos I think and we sometimes forget how young some of these people were. Eoin O'Duffy was 30 years old in this photo I believe, young for a person with the rank of general. This is Barra O'Briain's family 1911 census return www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Trinity_... It seems he did serve in the War of Independence books.google.com/books?id=Re8pAQAAMAAJ&q=barra+o%27br...

  • profile

    VooDooNoel

    • 24/Jun/2015 12:10:28

    The ear pattern and nose shape do not match Barra O'Brien. Barra's left ear protrudes out, the person in the W.D.Hogan's goes in towards his head. The nose shape is much wider at the tip, Barra's was narrow.

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    VooDooNoel

    • 24/Jun/2015 12:37:35

    UCD Library list him in a copy of the photograph in the Desmond Fitzgerald collection as Barra O'Brien.

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    VooDooNoel

    • 25/Jun/2015 19:24:40

    By the way, Unknown appears in almost every photograph with O'Duffy including another three from this series and two famous ones taken at Parkgate GHQ. (Behind and between O'Duffy and JJ 'Ginger' O'Connell) www.militaria-archive.com/independence/vb-scrapb2/content...

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    National Library of Ireland on The Commons

    • 27/Jun/2015 06:20:06

    [https://www.flickr.com/photos/voodoonoel] Noel, thanks for the comments, I will ask our group here to have another look. Mary

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    rsfusco2001

    • 08/Jul/2015 23:15:01

    A lovely image of the time ;)